From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: "Thomas S. Dye" Subject: Re: AI for orgmode Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:23:46 -1000 Message-ID: References: <45c323461003191748m44a2ed57n33ef4104771e3bb1@mail.gmail.com> <234C6E0B-055E-461F-90C8-9B6B1F25C36D@ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-path: Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NsoNX-0007wT-5y for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:25:31 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=36881 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsoN3-0007Uu-7R for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:25:30 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsoLy-0007KK-Hy for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:23:57 -0400 Received: from outbound-mail-360.bluehost.com ([66.147.249.254]:50357) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsoLy-0007K4-3A for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:23:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: <234C6E0B-055E-461F-90C8-9B6B1F25C36D@ualberta.ca> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Neil Hepburn Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Leo , Carsten Dominik Aloha all, The current documentation is terrific and it should grow and develop as it has. The idea to augment it with "org-mode lite" is a good one, but will be a lot of work. Following on the good ideas of others in the thread, would it be feasible to develop packets for specific Org-mode uses? 1) necessary .emacs code, 2) example Org-mode file, 3) tutorial document on Worg, and 4) screencast. The newbie could cut and paste 1) to .emacs and re-start, load 2), and either read 3) or watch 4) as she followed along and edited 2). My own experience has involved a moderate amount of time with 1) (with immeasurable help from Eric Schulte's emacs starter kit), and huge amounts of time experimenting with Org-mode file structures. I still don't have the GTD stuff down to my satisfaction but think that if I'd spent an hour or two looking over Bernt Hansen's shoulder as he worked that I would have it nailed. The basic idea is to get the newbie to a predetermined goal, *then* let her fiddle around with all the neat stuff in the manual, wiki, worg, blogs, list archive, etc. All the best and TGIF, Tom On Mar 19, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Neil Hepburn wrote: > Hi All > > I've just caught wind of this thread but I thought I would share my > own very recent experiences as a newbie in org-mode and my > experiences may help shed some light on things. > > Anyhow, I am quite new to org-mode (as in the last two or three > weeks). I'm also sort of new to emacs. I've used it occasionally > over the years but only recently started using it extensively > because of ESS and AucTeX. So, I am by no means an emacs expert --- > I know how to start it and use some of its tools but configuring it > is not something I can claim to know anything about. > > I stumbled across org-mode when I did a google search for GTD and > came across a couple of blogs and sites that talked about it. Each > of them provided snippets of their .emacs files and so that's where > I started. On several occasions I was stumped by a configuration > issue and tried looking in the on-line manual but didn't really get > anywhere. It wasn't until I tried using mobileorg that I started to > develop a better understanding of things. I was having trouble > getting mobileorg to work and Richard Moreland provided several key > bits of information and it on that basis that I started to piece > things together. > > In reflecting on that experience and looking back at the manual, the > manual makes perfect sense -- for someone more knowledgeable about > emacs and lisp in general. However, to an emacs novice it seems to > assume a greater level of background knowledge than what may be > reasonable. > > However, that said, trying to "dumb-down" the manual so that emacs > novices are better served would likely do a disservice to > experienced emacs users -- they would have to wade through pages of > minutia and really basic stuff to get to what's important for them. > > I think that Darlan's idea of tutorials that start with the really > basic stuff and then build up to the good stuff has much merit. In > some respects, what may be needed is a parallel documentation > stream: The current documentation as it is for those more > experienced and another one for newbies (Org-Mode for newbies sort > of thing.) > > Anyhow, just my two-cents worth. > > -Neil > > PS. Now that I have gotten the hang of org-mode to be reasonably > functional in it, I just cannot see myself going back to OmniFocus > and iCal -- both good programs in their own right but Org-mode can > just do it all so much better. > > On 2010-03-19, at 6:48 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote: > >> I strongly agree with "just start simple". The manual is very good, >> but it >> is better when you are looking for something specific. One of the >> best >> things in org is that it is very flexible and you can use it in the >> way you >> want, but in the beginning I didn't know "how I should use it" or >> "how I >> want to use it". One thing that helped me was seeing the setup of >> power >> users. This allowed me to quickly see what org could do and how it >> could be >> done. Only after that I found "the best way to use org-mode" for me. >> >> But the problem is that I could only find "power users setups". >> Maybe some >> tutorial that builds a setup like that from scratch would be good. >> The >> tutorial could be broken in parts where each part adds something to >> the >> previous one and the user could use the setup from parts he already >> viewed >> for some time to really "feel org-mode". Reading each part would be >> more >> rewarding then reading a lot of information and only after that >> trying >> org-mode. >> >> Darlan >> >> >> 2010/3/19 John Hendy : >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel >>>>> who was >>>>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate >>>>> with Emacs >>>>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp >>>>> applications). >>>>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately >>>>> he >>>>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so >>>>> he had >>>>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since >>>>> that is >>>>> his job. >>>>> >>>>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I >>>>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. >>>>> but I >>>>> could understand the frustration. >>>> >>>> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the >>>> startup >>>> pain in a clever way. >>>> >>>> - Carsten >>>> >>> >>> I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around >>> a couple >>> of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on >>> planner and >>> org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning >>> curve. I think >>> the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning >>> tendencies. >>> For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode, >>> seeing her >>> code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely >>> revolting... >>> not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but >>> because it made >>> me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where >>> her and >>> other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use. >>> >>> 'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion: >>> >>> - Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org- >>> mode >>> material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too, >>> but as >>> someone who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would >>> have helped >>> to just know some basics: >>> --- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs, >>> then >>> install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for >>> about 4 >>> years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it! >>> --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a >>> location and >>> file_name.org to create an org-mode file >>> --- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s >>> >>> - Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual >>> is plainly >>> awesome... but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new >>> beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the >>> C-this >>> M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical >>> levels. >>> Example: >>> --- Take the 2.1 Outlines section >>> --- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines, >>> unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the >>> top of the >>> section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/ >>> de]mote, etc. >>> --- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward? >>> >>> - Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner >>> documentation. >>> Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for >>> now) >>> instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest? >>> >>> - Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I >>> would have >>> loved to know: >>> --- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in >>> general and >>> org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2) >>> that >>> trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and >>> I was not >>> sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life. >>> --- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would >>> just start >>> simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org- >>> mode. Postpone >>> learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views, >>> exporting >>> (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know >>> how to keep >>> that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0), >>> etc. >>> >>> - In closing... I think beginners should have some message >>> tailored to them >>> to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever >>> led them >>> to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank >>> slates >>> with respect to Emacs and need a way to: >>> --- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting >>> and >>> staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next >>> --- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut >>> encyclopedias... >>> at first >>> --- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a >>> little at a >>> time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to >>> something useful >>> in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the >>> full >>> depth of what org-mode can do. >>> >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira >> >> "SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: http://www.sdr4all.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode