Poll: Who is using these commands

Poll: Who is using these commands

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi everyone,

I am wondering:

How many of your are using these keys

C-c C-f
C-c C-b
C-c C-n
C-c C-p

for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't  
actually use them.

Another question:

C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.

I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
and free up another first class key.

Opinions, veto-attempts?


Thanks!

- Carsten

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Vagn Johansen]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p

I use them because I need to navigate the outline structure and they
are the only keybindings I know of.


I just realized (by looking in org.el) that org mode has another way
to navigate the ouline that I did not know about:

   http://orgmode.org/manual/Speed-keys.html

I have tried these and it seems I would not need the C-c C-<key>
bindings then.

Maybe you are thinking of removing the C-c bindings and setting
org-use-speed-commands to t?

If that is the case, suppose you are in the middle a big text
chunk. Then you would still need org-backward-same-level to get
quickly access to the speed commands.


-- 
Vagn Johansen

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Darlan Cavalcante Moreira]

For me "two level" commands like C-c C-[fbnp] are not very practical to
such common task as navigating though the outline. I mapped C-M-n to
outline-next-visible-heading, C-M-p to outline-previous-visible-heading and
C-M-u to outline-up-heading. That way I can hold Ctrl and Alt and just
press (or even hold) the n,p or u keys and that's all that I need to easily
navigate in an org buffer. This is also consistent with speed keys, and if
I'm in a headline I can just use the same letters without pressing Ctrl and
Alt for the same effect.

Darlan


2010/5/8 Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>
> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually use
> them.
>
> Another question:
>
> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>
> I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
> and free up another first class key.
>
> Opinions, veto-attempts?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>



-- 
Darlan Cavalcante Moreira

"SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: http://www.sdr4all.com/

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Mikael Fornius]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p

I am not using them.


> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>
> I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
> and free up another first class key.

I frequently use C-c C-v and likes the easiness of it but I am an easy
re-learner so please change it, I vote for consistency.

-- 
Mikael Fornius

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Bastien]

Hi Carsten,

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>
> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually
> use them.

FWIW, I don't use them.

> Another question:
>
> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>
> I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
> and free up another first class key.

+1

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Eric Schulte]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>

Not me, I'm using CM-n, CM-p, CM-u, and CM-d for outline navigation.

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Benjamin Andresen]

"Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am wondering:
>>
>> How many of your are using these keys
>>
>> C-c C-f
>> C-c C-b
>> C-c C-n
>> C-c C-p
>>
>
> Not me, I'm using CM-n, CM-p, CM-u, and CM-d for outline navigation.

Same here.
I'm also using speed commands a lot for navigation.

br,
benny

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 8, 2010, at 5:53 PM, Eric Schulte wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am wondering:
>>
>> How many of your are using these keys
>>
>> C-c C-f
>> C-c C-b
>> C-c C-n
>> C-c C-p
>>
>
> Not me, I'm using CM-n, CM-p, CM-u, and CM-d for outline navigation.


What exactly do you have at these keys?

- Carsten

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Memnon Anon]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
> How many of your are using these keys
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p

FWIW, I do not use them. Speedkeys are my favorites.

> [`C-c / t' to make a TODO sparse tree?]

+1
Consistency is much more important for defaultkeybindings than 
already formed habbits, imho. If anyone can't get used to it, he
certainly already knows how to switch back.

Memnon

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Sebastian Rose]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p


I never did. To many keypresses to navigate fast.

I bound C-DOWN C-UP to forward- and backward-paragraph, which perfect
for me.


  Sebastian

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Scot Becker]

I use those four combos, but not too often, and I think I'd prefer to
map them to CM-[npud].



On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> wrote:
> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am wondering:
>>
>> How many of your are using these keys
>>
>> C-c C-f
>> C-c C-b
>> C-c C-n
>> C-c C-p
>
>
> I never did. To many keypresses to navigate fast.
>
> I bound C-DOWN C-UP to forward- and backward-paragraph, which perfect
> for me.
>
>
>  Sebastian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Stephan Schmitt]

On 05/08/2010 07:46 PM, Scot Becker wrote:
> I use those four combos, but not too often, and I think I'd prefer to
> map them to CM-[npud].
>
same for me.

Stephan
>
>
> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Sebastian Rose<sebastian_rose@gmx.de>  wrote:
>> Carsten Dominik<carsten.dominik@gmail.com>  writes:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I am wondering:
>>>
>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>
>>> C-c C-f
>>> C-c C-b
>>> C-c C-n
>>> C-c C-p
>>
>>
>> I never did. To many keypresses to navigate fast.
>>
>> I bound C-DOWN C-UP to forward- and backward-paragraph, which perfect
>> for me.
>>
>>
>>   Sebastian
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Scott Randby]

On 05/08/2010 05:14 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>
> for navigation through the outline? These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually
> use them.

I use all of these frequently. Please don't change them.

Scott Randby

>
> Another question:
>
> C-c C-v currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>
> I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
> and free up another first class key.
>
> Opinions, veto-attempts?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Eric S Fraga]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1072 bytes --]

On Sat, 08 May 2010 14:04:59 -0400, Scott Randby <srandby@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/08/2010 05:14 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I am wondering:
> >
> > How many of your are using these keys
> >
> > C-c C-f
> > C-c C-b
> > C-c C-n
> > C-c C-p
> >
> > for navigation through the outline? These are first class keys,
> > and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually
> > use them.
> 
> I use all of these frequently. Please don't change them.
> 
> Scott Randby

Finally, somebody else that uses them.  I use them all the time.

However, that does not mean that you cannot change them as I'm sure I
can get used to anything... or can rebind them myself.  I do use speed
keys as well but they only work when starting from a heading.

> > Another question:
> >
> > C-c C-v currently make the TODO sparse tree.
> >
> > I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
> > and free up another first class key.
> >
> > Opinions, veto-attempts?

This proposed change is perfectly fine with me.

Thanks,
eric

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-- 
Eric S Fraga
GnuPG: 8F5C 279D 3907 E14A 5C29  570D C891 93D8 FFFC F67D

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_______________________________________________
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Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Russell Adams]

I too use them, however I would vote for consistency. I can retrain my
fingers.

I have never tried the speed keys because these are available. Now
I'll check them out.

Given the issue of needing to be at the beginning of the headline to
use speed keys, maybe we just need a key to jump back to the current
headline so we can start.

Thanks.

On Sat, May 08, 2010 at 02:04:59PM -0400, Scott Randby wrote:
> On 05/08/2010 05:14 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am wondering:
>>
>> How many of your are using these keys
>>
>> C-c C-f
>> C-c C-b
>> C-c C-n
>> C-c C-p
>>
>> for navigation through the outline? These are first class keys,
>> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually
>> use them.
>
> I use all of these frequently. Please don't change them.
>
> Scott Randby
>
>>
>> Another question:
>>
>> C-c C-v currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>>
>> I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
>> and free up another first class key.
>>
>> Opinions, veto-attempts?
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>


------------------------------------------------------------------
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PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs]

Hi!
Carsten Dominik schrieb:
> I am wondering:
> 
> How many of your are using these keys
> 
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p

Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.

> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't
> actually use them.
> 
> Another question:
> 
> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.

I use that one quite often. If you decided to use it for something
else, I would override it in my config.

-- 
        Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs <friedel@nomaden.org>
                             TauPan on Ircnet and Freenode ;)

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Scott Randby]

On 05/08/2010 04:22 PM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
> Hi!
> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
>> I am wondering:
>>
>> How many of your are using these keys
>>
>> C-c C-f
>> C-c C-b
>> C-c C-n
>> C-c C-p
>
> Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.

The problem I have with speed commands is that, according to the manual, they only work "when the cursor is at the beginning of a headline." I need commands that work when the cursor is anywhere on the headline.

Scott Randby

>
>> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
>> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't
>> actually use them.
>>
>> Another question:
>>
>> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>
> I use that one quite often. If you decided to use it for something
> else, I would override it in my config.
>

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Daniel Clemente]

El dom, may 09 2010 a les 00:03, Scott Randby va escriure:
>> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
>>> I am wondering:
>>>
>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>
>>> C-c C-f
>>> C-c C-b
>>> C-c C-n
>>> C-c C-p
>>
>> Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.
>
> The problem I have with speed commands is that, according to the manual, they only work "when the cursor is at the beginning of a headline." I need commands that work when the cursor is anywhere on the headline.
>

I also use them constantly for the same reason: they work anywhere. The one I use and like most is C-c C-p
Speed commands are also fine, specially when I need to do more than one jump.

However, each time I need C-c C-[fbnp] I must start thinking in English about what „forward“ means as opposed to „next“, and whether one trespasses indentation levels or not. They're a bit hard to memorize.

>>>
>>> Another question:
>>>
>>> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.

I use it specially after narrowing a subtree.
I don't use sparse trees and I don't find any equivalent in „C-c / SOMEKEY“ which lists all TODO entries.



--
Daniel

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 9, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Scott Randby wrote:

> On 05/08/2010 04:22 PM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
>> Hi!
>> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
>>> I am wondering:
>>>
>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>
>>> C-c C-f
>>> C-c C-b
>>> C-c C-n
>>> C-c C-p
>>
>> Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.
>
> The problem I have with speed commands is that, according to the  
> manual, they only work "when the cursor is at the beginning of a  
> headline." I need commands that work when the cursor is anywhere on  
> the headline.

Hi Scott,

what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative  
bindings?
These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here have  
pointed out,
they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down, press the  
character.)

- Carsten

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Ecce Berlin]

>>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>>
>>>> C-c C-f
>>>> C-c C-b
>>>> C-c C-n
>>>> C-c C-p


I use them 1000 times a day, but I like the idea of changing them to C-M-[fbnp].

But I would also add C-c C-u (then C-M-u) to the list.


Ecce

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Sebastian Rose]

Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> writes:
> I currently use all of the four navigation keys above.  C-c C-n and C-c
> C-p are the two I use the most.  If there was some other key binding
> that would do the same thing from inside the body of a task that would
> be fine with me.

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
> what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative bindings?
> These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here have pointed out,
> they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down, press the character.)


  C-M e    - end-of-defun
  C-M a    - beginning-of-defun

have no useful binding in Org-mode, too.


What about re-using beginning-of-defun  `C-M a'  to jump to the start of
the current sections headline (or the beginning of the headline, if
point is on a headline) to speed up the speed keys?

`C-M e' could jump the beginnig of the next headline (or the end of the
current section, if no headline follows).



  Sebastian

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Leo]

On 2010-05-09 12:43 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative
> bindings? These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here
> have pointed out, they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down,
> press the character.)

It is terrible idea to override these parenthesis movement bindings.
They are universal in all editing modes that if overridden people who
also use other emacs packages will be surprised. For example to move
from a open parenthesis to a closing parenthesis.

However, it makes sense to bind C-M-a and C-M-e to move the the
beginning/end of a subtree.

I don't use these org movement bindings much because isearch does the
job perfectly and it can be used everywhere.

Leo

-- 
CCL-USER> _

Re: Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Stephan Schmitt]

On 05/09/2010 04:26 PM, Also sprach Leo:
> On 2010-05-09 12:43 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative
>> bindings? These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here
>> have pointed out, they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down,
>> press the character.)
>
> It is terrible idea to override these parenthesis movement bindings.
> They are universal in all editing modes that if overridden people who
> also use other emacs packages will be surprised. For example to move
> from a open parenthesis to a closing parenthesis.

On the other hand, I often press the C-M-[fbnp] combinations in org
mode with the expectation to navigate through the logical structure
like I'm used from lisp mode.  Then I'm surprised to find the point
somewhere in a hidden subtree with the cursor at the ellipsis which
represent it.

In other words, in a more abstract view as structure navigating keys
the proposed binding is more intuive then the parenthesis oriented
motion.  But perhaps this holds only for lisp hackers...

Greetings,
	Stephan


>
> However, it makes sense to bind C-M-a and C-M-e to move the the
> beginning/end of a subtree.
>
> I don't use these org movement bindings much because isearch does the
> job perfectly and it can be used everywhere.
>
> Leo
>

Re: Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 9, 2010, at 4:26 PM, Leo wrote:

> On 2010-05-09 12:43 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative
>> bindings? These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here
>> have pointed out, they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down,
>> press the character.)
>
> It is terrible idea to override these parenthesis movement bindings.
> They are universal in all editing modes that if overridden people who
> also use other emacs packages will be surprised. For example to move
> from a open parenthesis to a closing parenthesis.

Isn't this a legitimate case for overwriting these?  The outline  
structure is a hierarchical structure which can be traversed in a  
similar way as the parenthesis structure in Lisp code....  Emacs major  
mode conventions allow overwriting general commands when this makes  
sense for the mode and executed similiar functionality.

I am no exper here, so please tell me if this would be a reasonable  
interpretation or not.

- Carsten

>
> However, it makes sense to bind C-M-a and C-M-e to move the the
> beginning/end of a subtree.
>
> I don't use these org movement bindings much because isearch does the
> job perfectly and it can be used everywhere.
>
> Leo
>
> -- 
> CCL-USER> _
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Sebastian Rose]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
> Isn't this a legitimate case for overwriting these?  The outline structure is a
> hierarchical structure which can be traversed in a  similar way as the
> parenthesis structure in Lisp code....  Emacs major  mode conventions allow
> overwriting general commands when this makes  sense for the mode and executed
> similiar functionality.


I guess it is the usual practice - and it definitively makes sense.

Now C-M-e jumps to the end of the buffer. I.e. it's good for nothing and
does _not_ what I would expect it to do:  navigate to the end of the
current syntactical structure element.


  Sebastian

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Leo]

On 2010-05-09 16:24 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Isn't this a legitimate case for overwriting these? The outline
> structure is a hierarchical structure which can be traversed in a
> similar way as the parenthesis structure in Lisp code.... Emacs major
> mode conventions allow overwriting general commands when this makes
> sense for the mode and executed similiar functionality.

Probably not C-M-f and C-M-b. I haven't seen any mode in which these
keys are bound to something significantly different.

If org mode decide to be more structure oriented, maybe something can be
learnt from nxml-mode. I have heard good things about it though I
haven't used it myself.

Leo

Re: Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Nick Dokos]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2010-05-09 12:43 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> > what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative
> > bindings? These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here
> > have pointed out, they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down,
> > press the character.)
> 
> It is terrible idea to override these parenthesis movement bindings.
> They are universal in all editing modes that if overridden people who
> also use other emacs packages will be surprised. For example to move
> from a open parenthesis to a closing parenthesis.
> 

I disagree: they are not parenthesis movement bindings - they are
structure-navigation bindings. For example, C-M-f is forward-sexp.
In lisp, an sexp has some relationship to parentheses, but it is
incidental; in other programming modes, an sexp is whatever makes
sense in that language and these commands are redefined appropriately.

I think it is entirely appropriate to use these bindings to navigate
structure in org-mode as well.

My 2 cents,
Nick

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Leo]

On 2010-05-09 16:59 +0100, Nick Dokos wrote:
> I disagree: they are not parenthesis movement bindings - they are
> structure-navigation bindings. For example, C-M-f is forward-sexp.
> In lisp, an sexp has some relationship to parentheses, but it is
> incidental; in other programming modes, an sexp is whatever makes
> sense in that language and these commands are redefined appropriately.

Perhaps you haven't noticed. SEXP is a useful abstract. For example, it
allows you to move across some_long_function_name in C and even in the
message-mode I'm currently using, not just parenthesis. Situation like
this will arise when editing org files too. It is a key binding that you
can rely on in various modes and they happen to do the right thing.

They are not re-defined, in most modes once you have a proper syntax
table, they just work. On the other hand, the defun abstraction is not
as universal as sexp so redefine them is fine.

C-M-f and C-M-b are keys that I use extensively.

I haven't used C-M-n and C-M-p much.

> I think it is entirely appropriate to use these bindings to navigate
> structure in org-mode as well.

I am not against binding suitable keys to structure movement.

Leo


-- 
CCL-USER> _

Re: Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Sebastian Rose]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:
> Perhaps you haven't noticed. SEXP is a useful abstract. For example, it
> allows you to move across some_long_function_name in C and even in the
> message-mode I'm currently using, not just parenthesis. Situation like
> this will arise when editing org files too. It is a key binding that you
> can rely on in various modes and they happen to do the right thing.


Perhaps you haven't noticed, that C-M-a  and  C-M-e  do not anything
usefull or similar to what you describe  in Org-mode buffers.

Navigating sections would be something similar and useful. Wouldn't it?


  Sebastian

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Leo]

On 2010-05-09 18:33 +0100, Sebastian Rose wrote:
> Perhaps you haven't noticed, that C-M-a  and  C-M-e  do not anything
> usefull or similar to what you describe  in Org-mode buffers.
>
> Navigating sections would be something similar and useful. Wouldn't it?

I already stated it makes sense to re-bind C-M-a and C-M-e. 'defun'
usually also means top-level that suits well with the structure in org
mode.

Leo

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Dan Davison]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2010-05-09 16:59 +0100, Nick Dokos wrote:
>> I disagree: they are not parenthesis movement bindings - they are
>> structure-navigation bindings. For example, C-M-f is forward-sexp.
>> In lisp, an sexp has some relationship to parentheses, but it is
>> incidental; in other programming modes, an sexp is whatever makes
>> sense in that language and these commands are redefined appropriately.
>
> Perhaps you haven't noticed. SEXP is a useful abstract. For example,
> it allows you to move across some_long_function_name in C and even in
> the message-mode I'm currently using, not just parenthesis. Situation
> like this will arise when editing org files too.

Yes, so in other words C-M-f can be used to jump over atoms, and in many
modes that has the useful effect of jumping over words containing '_'
'-' etc. I haven't seen any disagreement yet over the general principle
of treating headings as SEXPs, so I think the issue here is: is Org
happy to declare that a childless heading is atomic? And if we are happy
with that, are we left with a convenient way to skip over
something-like-this or something_like_this when they occur in Org-mode?

An alternative view would be that when point is at the beginning of a
heading C-M-f skips over the subtree, and otherwise C-M-f skips over one
"Org atom", however defined.

Dan



> It is a key binding that you
> can rely on in various modes and they happen to do the right thing.
>
> They are not re-defined, in most modes once you have a proper syntax
> table, they just work. On the other hand, the defun abstraction is not
> as universal as sexp so redefine them is fine.
>
> C-M-f and C-M-b are keys that I use extensively.
>
> I haven't used C-M-n and C-M-p much.
>
>> I think it is entirely appropriate to use these bindings to navigate
>> structure in org-mode as well.
>
> I am not against binding suitable keys to structure movement.
>
> Leo

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Dan Davison]

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2010-05-09 12:43 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> > what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative
>> > bindings? These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here
>> > have pointed out, they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down,
>> > press the character.)
>> 
>> It is terrible idea to override these parenthesis movement bindings.
>> They are universal in all editing modes that if overridden people who
>> also use other emacs packages will be surprised. For example to move
>> from a open parenthesis to a closing parenthesis.
>> 
>
> I disagree: they are not parenthesis movement bindings - they are
> structure-navigation bindings. For example, C-M-f is forward-sexp.
> In lisp, an sexp has some relationship to parentheses, but it is
> incidental; in other programming modes, an sexp is whatever makes
> sense in that language and these commands are redefined appropriately.
>
> I think it is entirely appropriate to use these bindings to navigate
> structure in org-mode as well.

I basically agree. However, the proposed mapping between SEXP movement
commands in programming modes and in org-mode seems rather loose:

Presumably the intended mapping is

C-c C-n <--> C-M-n   "n command"
C-c C-f <--> C-M-f   "f command"

That suggests that the n command in Org-mode should skip over the next
subtree, like forward-list; however, it advances over a body to the
start of the next subtree.

In fact, isn't there an argument that the Org bindings are the wrong way
round?  If we define in Org-mode:

- atom :: the body of a heading
- SEXP :: an atom, or a subtree

then the n command in Org-mode currently behaves a bit like forward-sexp
(C-M-f) , whereas the f command in Org-mode behaves a bit like
forward-list (C-M-n).

Dan




>
> My 2 cents,
> Nick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Dan Davison]

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2010-05-09 12:43 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> > what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative
>> > bindings? These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here
>> > have pointed out, they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down,
>> > press the character.)
>> 
>> It is terrible idea to override these parenthesis movement bindings.
>> They are universal in all editing modes that if overridden people who
>> also use other emacs packages will be surprised. For example to move
>> from a open parenthesis to a closing parenthesis.
>> 
>
> I disagree: they are not parenthesis movement bindings - they are
> structure-navigation bindings. For example, C-M-f is forward-sexp.
> In lisp, an sexp has some relationship to parentheses, but it is
> incidental; in other programming modes, an sexp is whatever makes
> sense in that language and these commands are redefined appropriately.
>
> I think it is entirely appropriate to use these bindings to navigate
> structure in org-mode as well.

I basically agree. However, the proposed mapping between SEXP movement
commands in programming modes and in org-mode seems rather loose:

Presumably the intended mapping is

C-c C-n <--> C-M-n   "n command"
C-c C-f <--> C-M-f   "f command"

That suggests that the n command in Org-mode should skip over the next
subtree, like forward-list; however, it advances over a body to the
start of the next subtree.

In fact, isn't there an argument that the Org bindings are the wrong way
round?  If we define in Org-mode:

- atom :: the body of a heading
- SEXP :: an atom, or a subtree

then the n command in Org-mode currently behaves a bit like forward-sexp
(C-M-f) , whereas the f command in Org-mode behaves a bit like
forward-list (C-M-n).

Dan




>
> My 2 cents,
> Nick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 9, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Dan Davison wrote:

> Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:
>
>> Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2010-05-09 12:43 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>> what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative
>>>> bindings? These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many  
>>>> here
>>>> have pointed out, they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M-  
>>>> down,
>>>> press the character.)
>>>
>>> It is terrible idea to override these parenthesis movement bindings.
>>> They are universal in all editing modes that if overridden people  
>>> who
>>> also use other emacs packages will be surprised. For example to move
>>> from a open parenthesis to a closing parenthesis.
>>>
>>
>> I disagree: they are not parenthesis movement bindings - they are
>> structure-navigation bindings. For example, C-M-f is forward-sexp.
>> In lisp, an sexp has some relationship to parentheses, but it is
>> incidental; in other programming modes, an sexp is whatever makes
>> sense in that language and these commands are redefined  
>> appropriately.
>>
>> I think it is entirely appropriate to use these bindings to navigate
>> structure in org-mode as well.
>
> I basically agree. However, the proposed mapping between SEXP movement
> commands in programming modes and in org-mode seems rather loose:
>
> Presumably the intended mapping is
>
> C-c C-n <--> C-M-n   "n command"
> C-c C-f <--> C-M-f   "f command"
>
> That suggests that the n command in Org-mode should skip over the next
> subtree, like forward-list; however, it advances over a body to the
> start of the next subtree.
>
> In fact, isn't there an argument that the Org bindings are the wrong  
> way
> round?  If we define in Org-mode:
>
> - atom :: the body of a heading
> - SEXP :: an atom, or a subtree
>
> then the n command in Org-mode currently behaves a bit like forward- 
> sexp
> (C-M-f) , whereas the f command in Org-mode behaves a bit like
> forward-list (C-M-n).

Hi Dan,

good observation, I had not realized this.

Hmmmmmm.  We are not there yet.

- Carsten

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Scott Randby]

On 05/09/2010 07:43 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>
> On May 9, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Scott Randby wrote:
>
>> On 05/08/2010 04:22 PM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
>>>> I am wondering:
>>>>
>>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>>
>>>> C-c C-f
>>>> C-c C-b
>>>> C-c C-n
>>>> C-c C-p
>>>
>>> Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.
>>
>> The problem I have with speed commands is that, according to the
>> manual, they only work "when the cursor is at the beginning of a
>> headline." I need commands that work when the cursor is anywhere on
>> the headline.
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> what do you think about C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p as alternative bindings?
> These seem to make *a lot* of sense, because, as many here have pointed
> out,
> they are so much better repeatable (Keep C-M- down, press the character.)
>
> - Carsten

If you want to go with these, then C-c C-u and C-c C-j should also be changed. However, I am concerned that C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-n, C-M-p, C-M-u, and C-M-j are already bound to other useful functions. I don't use these functions myself, but after looking over what they do, I can see that changing these bindings might interfere with the work of some.

Scott

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 9, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Scott Randby wrote:

> On 05/08/2010 04:22 PM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
>> Hi!
>> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
>>> I am wondering:
>>>
>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>
>>> C-c C-f
>>> C-c C-b
>>> C-c C-n
>>> C-c C-p
>>
>> Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.
>
> The problem I have with speed commands is that, according to the  
> manual, they only work "when the cursor is at the beginning of a  
> headline." I need commands that work when the cursor is anywhere on  
> the headline.

How about if C-M-a went back to the beginning of the heading and then  
you use speed commands?  Would that be an alternative, or is that one  
command to much?

- Carsten

>
> Scott Randby
>
>>
>>> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
>>> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't
>>> actually use them.
>>>
>>> Another question:
>>>
>>> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>>
>> I use that one quite often. If you decided to use it for something
>> else, I would override it in my config.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Scott Randby]

On 05/10/2010 02:33 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>
> On May 9, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Scott Randby wrote:
>
>> On 05/08/2010 04:22 PM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
>>>> I am wondering:
>>>>
>>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>>
>>>> C-c C-f
>>>> C-c C-b
>>>> C-c C-n
>>>> C-c C-p
>>>
>>> Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.
>>
>> The problem I have with speed commands is that, according to the
>> manual, they only work "when the cursor is at the beginning of a
>> headline." I need commands that work when the cursor is anywhere on
>> the headline.
>
> How about if C-M-a went back to the beginning of the heading and then
> you use speed commands? Would that be an alternative, or is that one
> command to much?

I don't really care for this alternative as it make motion a 2 command process.

Scott

>
> - Carsten
>
>>
>> Scott Randby
>>
>>>
>>>> for navigation through the outline? These are first class keys,
>>>> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't
>>>> actually use them.
>>>>
>>>> Another question:
>>>>
>>>> C-c C-v currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>>>
>>> I use that one quite often. If you decided to use it for something
>>> else, I would override it in my config.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Russell Adams]

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 08:33:16AM +0200, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> How about if C-M-a went back to the beginning of the heading and then  
> you use speed commands?  Would that be an alternative, or is that one  
> command to much?
>
> - Carsten

Carsten,

That's a good compromise. I never minded the originals being two-keys,
and really only the FIRST in a series will have two keypresses.

Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Andrew Burrow]

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On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Carsten Dominik
<carsten.dominik@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On May 9, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Scott Randby wrote:
>
>  On 05/08/2010 04:22 PM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
>>>
>>>> I am wondering:
>>>>
>>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>>
>>>> C-c C-f
>>>> C-c C-b
>>>> C-c C-n
>>>> C-c C-p
>>>>
>>>
>>> Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.
>>>
>>
>> The problem I have with speed commands is that, according to the manual,
>> they only work "when the cursor is at the beginning of a headline." I need
>> commands that work when the cursor is anywhere on the headline.
>>
>
> How about if C-M-a went back to the beginning of the heading and then you
> use speed commands?  Would that be an alternative, or is that one command to
> much?
>
> - Carsten


This makes a great deal of sense to me.

I am frequently frustrated when locating the start or end of a tree: how to
reliably place point so that M-<Enter> creates a new tree of the desired
level?  I suggest the following postconditions: C-M-a guarantees that speed
keys are applicable, and C-M-e guarantees that M-<Enter> is applicable.

Andrew

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Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Scott Randby]

On 05/10/2010 02:33 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>
> On May 9, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Scott Randby wrote:
>
>> On 05/08/2010 04:22 PM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
>>>> I am wondering:
>>>>
>>>> How many of your are using these keys
>>>>
>>>> C-c C-f
>>>> C-c C-b
>>>> C-c C-n
>>>> C-c C-p
>>>
>>> Never. I always use the speed commands since they became available.
>>
>> The problem I have with speed commands is that, according to the
>> manual, they only work "when the cursor is at the beginning of a
>> headline." I need commands that work when the cursor is anywhere on
>> the headline.
>
> How about if C-M-a went back to the beginning of the heading and then
> you use speed commands? Would that be an alternative, or is that one
> command to much?

I don't understand why C-M-a should be bound to take one back to the beginning of a heading when C-a already does this. With the proposed changes, one might press C-M-a and then C-M-p which is a total of 4 keys, when the current set-up is to press C-c C-p which is only 3 keys.  I'm not in favor of increasing the number of keys one needs to press to perform a basic motion.

Scott

>
> - Carsten
>
>>
>> Scott Randby
>>
>>>
>>>> for navigation through the outline? These are first class keys,
>>>> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't
>>>> actually use them.
>>>>
>>>> Another question:
>>>>
>>>> C-c C-v currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>>>
>>> I use that one quite often. If you decided to use it for something
>>> else, I would override it in my config.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Eric Schulte]

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Scott Randby <srandby@gmail.com> writes:

[...]
>
> I don't understand why C-M-a should be bound to take one back to the
> beginning of a heading when C-a already does this. With the proposed
> changes, one might press C-M-a and then C-M-p which is a total of 4
> keys, when the current set-up is to press C-c C-p which is only 3
> keys.  I'm not in favor of increasing the number of keys one needs to
> press to perform a basic motion.
>


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I haven't been following this thread so take this with a grain of salt,
but I count key-chords as single keys -- since they can all be pressed
in a single motion, which would mean

| C-M-a   | 1 key press   |
| C-c C-a | 2 key presses |

but maybe my hands are just too accustomed to typing in Emacs and it's
skewing my perception.

Best -- Eric

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Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Livin Stephen Sharma]

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On 12 May 2010 06:48, Eric Schulte <schulte.eric@gmail.com> wrote:

> Scott Randby <srandby@gmail.com> writes:
>
> [...]
> >
> > I don't understand why C-M-a should be bound to take one back to the
> > beginning of a heading when C-a already does this. With the proposed
> > changes, one might press C-M-a and then C-M-p which is a total of 4
> > keys, when the current set-up is to press C-c C-p which is only 3
> > keys.  I'm not in favor of increasing the number of keys one needs to
> > press to perform a basic motion.
> >
>
>
> I haven't been following this thread so take this with a grain of salt, but
> I count key-chords as single keys – since they can all be pressed in a
> single motion,
>
I agree that chording makes for single commands.


Scott,
Also,
the C-M-a to go back to beginning of heading works when one is somewhere
'under' the heading: in the 'content'/text in that section... so I think it
is different from C-a (did I understand you right?).
:)

Scott, you had said

> I'm not in favor of increasing the number of keys one needs to press to
> perform a basic motion.


I too hope there is a 'good' resolution to this.

FWIW, I have already followed the example of other responders and bound
C-M-... to work like the C-c C-... equivalents -- I find this change to be
an improvement over C-c C-... :
 the trivial loss being that C-M-.. no longer works for parentheses-based
movement in org buffers.



>  which would mean
>    C-M-a1 key press C-c C-a2 key presses
>
> but maybe my hands are just too accustomed to typing in Emacs and it's
> skewing my perception.
>
> Best – Eric
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
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>
>

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Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Bernt Hansen]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p


Hi Carsten,

I currently use all of the four navigation keys above.  C-c C-n and C-c
C-p are the two I use the most.  If there was some other key binding
that would do the same thing from inside the body of a task that would
be fine with me.

I'll just have to teach my fingers some new key sequence if these
change :)

I don't use C-c C-v anymore.

Regards,
Bernt

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Sebastian Hofer]

On 08.05.10 11:14 Uhr, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p

I don't use them. They are much too bothersom for me if I have to press 
them repeatedly.

> for navigation through the outline? These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually
> use them.
>
> Another question:
>
> C-c C-v currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>
> I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
> and free up another first class key.

Seems fine to me, consistent and therefore easy to remember (which is 
really important I think)! Go for that.

> Opinions, veto-attempts?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Daniel Martins]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 833 bytes --]

Go ahead!
I don't use them.

Daniel

2010/5/8 Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>

> Hi everyone,
>
> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>
> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually use
> them.
>
> Another question:
>
> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>
> I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
> and free up another first class key.
>
> Opinions, veto-attempts?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
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RE: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Vincent Belaïche]

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I use some of the navigation commands and C-c C-v (very often), but it would be quite fine to have other bindings provided that this is well advertised in the release note. I also often use C-c / way, for more refined queries.

So go ahead!

   Vincent.

Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 00:28:00 -0300
Subject: Re: [Orgmode] Poll: Who is using these commands
From: danielemc@gmail.com
To: carsten.dominik@gmail.com
CC: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org

Go ahead!
I don't use them.

Daniel

2010/5/8 Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>

Hi everyone,



I am wondering:



How many of your are using these keys



C-c C-f

C-c C-b

C-c C-n

C-c C-p



for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,

and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually use them.



Another question:



C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.



I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical

and free up another first class key.



Opinions, veto-attempts?





Thanks!



- Carsten











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Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Ulf Stegemann]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:

> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>
> for navigation through the outline?

I use them all the time but I don't mind if they'd change.

> Another question:
>
> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.

dto.


Ulf

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Jörg Hagmann]

Using them all,
JH

On 5/8/10 11:14 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>
> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't 
> actually use them.
>
> Another question:
>
> C-c C-v   currently make the TODO sparse tree.
>
> I would like to put this tree on `C-c / t' which would be quite logical
> and free up another first class key.
>
> Opinions, veto-attempts?

Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Andrew Burrow]

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On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Carsten Dominik
<carsten.dominik@gmail.com>wrote:

> I am wondering:
>
> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>
> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't actually use
> them.
>

I found their action difficult to follow.  Compare C-left.  In most
environments, if the cursor is within a word, it first moves to the start of
the word, and subsequently moves to the preceding word.

C-c C-b breaks this idiom.  I found this so jarring that I gave up using
these keys.

regards

Andrew

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Re: Poll: Who is using these commands

[Matt Lundin]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> How many of your are using these keys
>
> C-c C-f
> C-c C-b
> C-c C-n
> C-c C-p
>
> for navigation through the outline?  These are first class keys,
> and I would have good uses for these keys if most people don't
> actually use them.

I use C-c C-n and C-c C-p quite frequently. The others I do not use at
all.

My primary use for C-c C-n and C-c C-p is to move from an entry to a
heading so that I can then use speed keys to climb and descend the
outline. I would not mind if they were rebound.

Best,
Matt