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From: "András Simonyi" <andras.simonyi@gmail.com>
To: "András Simonyi" <andras.simonyi@gmail.com>,
	"emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Cc: Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:47:13 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAOWRwxANTMT3zznsTBEuwbk8stCCVZZDU7sdnfsu2K13ZWwJ_g@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87sg3neo0k.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>

Dear All,

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 at 15:11, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:

> I am also leaning towards removing the possibility to include Org syntax
> (e.g., bold) in prefixes/suffixes. Indeed, this doesn't sound terribly
> useful (you can move the bold part outside of the citation object), and
> yet, adds a layer of complexity on top of the citation object.
>
> Can we assume (global)prefix/suffix are just plain text?
>

well, I think there might be some legitimate use cases, e.g.,
(see Smith 1997, p. 2, see also p. 33, pp. 45-47, but /cf./ p. 103)
here one might want cf. to be set in italics, and I can imagine
situations in which emphasizing a phrase in a prefix/suffix can be
useful,
but IMHO we can certainly start with assuming just plain text.

> In any case, Org has no clue about the "location" of the citation. It
> can provide the suffix associated to the citation key, but it is up to
> the citation processor to extract page information out of it. If this is
> desirable, we need to provide the full citation object instead of the
> key. I don't know if it is worth the trouble.

It would definitely be useful for making possible more sophisticated
opening actions.

> > Am I correct in assuming that the returned bibliography should be
> > rendered as a legitimate Org fragment regardless of the back-end?
>
> I think it should be rendered as target format, to be on par with
> citation handling.
>
> You may, however, use Org format as an intermediate step, and then, call
> `org-export-data-with-backend' (from "ox.el") on it. If this is
> desirable, I need to also provide a fifth `info' argument to the list
> above.

This is a crucial point: when a note CSL style is used, the export has
to generate footnotes "around"  those citations  which are not already
in a footnote.
Since citeproc-org generates only Org fragments, this is very simple
to do (with anonymous footnotes), but for other formats it can be
rather complicated. Would calling `org-export-data-with-backend'
handle this? If yes then adding an argument  to request this call
would be very useful.

> >
> > This might not be an important point, but citeproc-el is rather
> > citation list oriented in the sense that it processes the list of all
> > citations and returns a list of their formatted counterparts, so it
> > might be useful to provide this "bulk" API as well, at least as an
> > optional addition.
>
> I don't think any addition to the suggested API is required. If you
> cannot split citation processing, you may fill a temporary cache holding
> all exports on first citation (the full list of citations objects is
> provided right from the start), then read from that cache on subsequent
> citations.
>
> WDYT?

Basically I agree,  it would probably be premature optimization to
provide anything else at this point.

> I don't understand what you call the "identity of the notes". Could you
> provide an example?

I meant only that knowing whether a citation is in a footnote or not
is not enough -- if a numerical note index is available which
specifies
the precise position of the note among the footnotes then this is
exactly the information what is needed.

> Situation in nested footnotes can be ambiguous, tho. In the following
> example, is the expected order @a then @b then @c?

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Text[fn:1] [@cite:@c]

[fn:1] This[fn:2] is [cite:@b].

[fn:2] [cite:@a]
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Yes, I think the order here is @a  @b and @c.

>> there is CSL-JSON and a CSL-YAML etc. If different "display"
>> and "follow" processors will be able to handle different formats then
>> the users might want to change those settings locally as well, based
>> on the bibliography format, but I'm not sure what kind of
>> infrastructure would be the best way of supporting this. (E.g.,
>> registering format support information about the processors and
>> choosing on this basis?)

>I don't have an idea about it either. This is not a blocker, tho. We can
>revisit it later, once we have "something" working.

Absolutely, in the long run probably a way of explicitly specifying
the bibliography format/type will be needed, but just a (file)name  is
a good starting point.

thanks & best regards,
András


> > infrastructure would be the best way of supporting this. (E.g.,
> > registering format support information about the processors and
> > choosing on this basis?)
>
> I don't have an idea about it either. This is not a blocker, tho. We can
> revisit it later, once we have "something" working.
>
> Thanks for your feedback.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Nicolas Goaziou


  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-04-21 21:48 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 139+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-07 15:15 wip-cite status question and feedback Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 17:51 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-07 18:27   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 18:31     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 21:13     ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-08  0:01       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-08  9:16         ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-08  9:32     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-08 12:19       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-08 13:39         ` John Kitchin
2020-04-08 16:12           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09  7:38         ` Albert Krewinkel
2020-04-09  9:30           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09  9:46             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 10:05               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 23:17                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-10  1:17                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10  5:38             ` Albert Krewinkel
2020-04-11 11:41       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 12:05       ` Gustav Wikström
2020-04-13 12:33         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-24 12:12           ` Bastien
2020-05-24 13:17             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-29 21:59               ` András Simonyi
2020-05-29 22:24                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-29 22:58                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-06-03 14:40                   ` Bastien
2020-06-03 14:53                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-12-14 21:24                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-03-24 13:22                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-03-24 18:27                         ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-11 23:15                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-12 13:19                             ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-12 18:53                               ` András Simonyi
2021-04-16 17:05                               ` András Simonyi
2021-04-16 17:23                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-18 13:11                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-18 13:35                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-04-18 13:37                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-21 19:57                                     ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:09                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-21 20:57                                         ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:26                                   ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:54                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22  2:47                                     ` Timothy
2021-04-22 12:07                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22 12:34                                         ` Timothy
2021-04-21 21:47                                   ` András Simonyi [this message]
2021-04-21 23:51                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-22  0:01                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22  0:15                                         ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 11:49                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 12:55                                             ` András Simonyi
2021-04-23 13:10                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-23 13:24                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-23 14:50                                                   ` András Simonyi
2021-04-23 22:08                                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-24 17:37                                                   ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-24 17:47                                                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-24 18:39                                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26 14:54                                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26 20:35                                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 10:12                                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 10:20                                                             ` Timothy
2021-04-27 11:44                                                             ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 12:32                                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 13:58                                                                 ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 14:07                                                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 14:50                                                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-04-30 13:28                                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-30 21:47                                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-05-01 11:09                                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-01 13:26                                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-02 21:58                                                             ` Denis Maier
2021-05-02 22:18                                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-02 23:30                                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-05 13:46                                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-05 18:14                                                                   ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-05-05 18:27                                                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-06 17:05                                                                       ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-05-06  8:08                                                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-04-24 13:14                                               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 12:03                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 13:34                                       ` András Simonyi
2021-04-17 19:13                               ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-18 16:17                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-20 13:32                                   ` Matt Price
2021-04-21 17:07                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-21 17:53                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-04-10  9:29 denis.maier.lists
2020-04-10 12:22 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10 22:56 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-11 21:42   ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-11 22:05     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 10:38       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 11:15         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 14:02           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 14:25             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 15:32               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 15:44                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 15:57                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 17:17                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 20:49                 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-12 22:19                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-13  8:33                     ` Stefan Nobis
2020-04-13 10:02                       ` Denis Maier
2020-04-13 10:11                         ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 10:05                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 10:14                       ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13  9:58                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 10:09                     ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 10:10                     ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-13 10:46                       ` Stefan Nobis
2020-04-15  5:54                       ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-15 10:07                         ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-18  9:34                           ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-18 10:56                         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 12:48                           ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-18 13:17                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 13:22                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 20:23                                 ` Denis Maier
2020-04-18 20:28                                 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-19  9:11                               ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-25 16:19                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-25 17:00                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-25 20:03                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-25 21:18                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-01 17:38                                         ` Richard Lawrence
2020-05-01 17:54                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-02 14:06                                             ` Nicolas Goaziou
     [not found]                                               ` <2fbf14cf-ae8c-4f7c-27f7-33771aa99492@mailbox.org>
2020-05-02 16:34                                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 17:24                                                   ` Denis Maier
2020-05-02 13:13                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 13:45                                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-02 20:45                                             ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-29  9:14                                   ` Denis Maier
2020-05-02  9:51                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 11:53                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 20:38                           ` Joost Kremers

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