From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id EDlgLopz9mDIlgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 08:56:10 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id MEQbKopz9mD3WAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 06:56:10 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2435287E4 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 08:56:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:44058 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5jfj-0002aL-R8 for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:56:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41212) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5jf6-0002aD-6C for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:55:28 -0400 Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]:39520) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5jf2-0003DO-QN for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:55:27 -0400 Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id j2so10721098vsi.6 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 23:55:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VIfaiO/bVN5YQJKVvo5RcvtvGRwFMJnzcisRbsvExbM=; b=UIl0z6r4zQhGCTLaUGdvoJVEmBMX8uRbzMczY5hY1r6ivHTn3mrllWCjoftBnMq5b+ 79349l5w1B/13YZWeRJSVz2qkrv5xruyh/7BlS3siBlZ8/YRxYTkZlDuqGmrQmGzRauW aQoxJoTTWT3fPfZXmFP5Yto5yDmKZtUMhKpmmD+p0WKgx5QrflIh1rW5DKSI+E5xXQpk xzaK7kysxLPhYu/Y6HctL1WRb5XbrxXoo3HHJAdg4QkXGBhZxYmBP7isJaSy5fPbE1YW nzW/W+qmmND/x9WLKzjQv1XZ4bFXGmSNa8ctk/UqmKQ9aGtD8Vig2miaPqV0p99VBvWc DI8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VIfaiO/bVN5YQJKVvo5RcvtvGRwFMJnzcisRbsvExbM=; b=NkecpDiDwRemXsmSsvZYWrtrWb5nBLcEGBHOSeNLCRSgbenvjrOBml8lwi+q7ubdsT XPHlneX75eGbJgpGEPhKRgL2q/E4VU84YaNfP8BE/eg11gzizAkVz3DE5MANEXjVg0uN vyGecVjnfzU9SDZKpXIp1zSTSbDrRbtp1CA4Ukcs62+Wz1RdB+lM+GT4j3BVF3mvjUCv eSlBb9WaHdRAJfKcErrZkEHZ7SoPonbqNWFlo4EcosgC7Dtlb0fJANLy2TxIFYwUoQ2E bAAtS5mtjG4k7WDnbp00pXnQk64bPw9vXSYRPiNgwi5beIr8EyMMxDrIs5AidDgahGY1 mCaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5328BA4xFruiwYlBRPgYvd2AtK4e9VNaFoyFfKH8dYCPTCGTNP5W hZCyPtlQ0coQSh/U0jLnbvph2RMTHKgYxu6Q3Hg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJziUgsViuLUXSrDLlz6uK/KEdPai2FghpbycVwKluzwPh/de1QxyKNbfMfxmU6VLLIooJ10CIMt4vPpmziqbJs= X-Received: by 2002:a67:8013:: with SMTP id b19mr27588835vsd.33.1626764122467; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 23:55:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8185a990d20b6af915d7355c013c9fc8a62771d4.camel@free.fr> In-Reply-To: From: Matt Price Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:55:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: org-cite: how to include a cite with no key? To: John Kitchin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a7314005c78889b7" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a; envelope-from=moptop99@gmail.com; helo=mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Emmanuel Charpentier , emacs-orgmode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1626764170; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=VIfaiO/bVN5YQJKVvo5RcvtvGRwFMJnzcisRbsvExbM=; b=XTLRrDRiLvAQgveMqYhQa1U40y+q+OA9lyHNK2rw3JI8ElAu1m+Im5YHTsN2JoU9aFGBz+ pMlrT6Zz7f7AAurWuXOJIJhLYXE60GAz45s75NZMP/lVdzOv843FiYjwNCra0ERMcOrD43 4+kihTVOyMO7CqORbAvWtXLmIPMmI5ZG9sjBdYIzPJQ2GYUOmDR7MJsw1+xQMJxxn6rfTL cpMA7pbCdqmm6bf5m6b6YADeTw9rHGksYKflqW+zw8CVYKWcgMV1GPBCQhmU+Kmk32xzgO DbjkgjUMN/OZPua0J0j2UdzSlnVk7Wde+Nfs3iA/e9qxvsZ01HG4Uc3ten8wTg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1626764170; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=UPDftiba7vUzp4F3MkppNU/Qn8l98capngVpDqqjycWxQQS+uwhv6UdYlFrHVD1dyptz7g ko7D8iPDJUMr681Kci7mYCD+yA0m4LxbDDPtzWE4twNUFhJ018bAPi3nlaw4umdFbqt68X 6Mni7oB0ZMl9BXOCgdOXq6Zwc9ozozGkjAKWy//qq7ouJwid+r1Q4jAUME5GEvPEcU+2zo +cEj71o67oH5LNC7dCRkKLLSqeuXb2Bz2dWDPb9KcsxhlBPK5DChZmARFTYYmUVKdusLu9 bgKN0X925eG3rIXIuG82Hv5bTaGr3tcoH8xUVgN2J5vXU63UI8wZTwW3aOAT9w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=UIl0z6r4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.12 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=UIl0z6r4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: F2435287E4 X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: SovS1Nie7Sui --000000000000a7314005c78889b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Certainly citation of personal communications is common in the fields of history and philosophy of science, where it represents an effort to responsibly represent the source of ideas owed to other persons. It's not really a question of whether you personally would do it; it's a question of whether org will support a practice that exists in some real-world contexts. On Mon., Jul. 19, 2021, 8:48 p.m. John Kitchin, wrote: > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 7:28 PM Emmanuel Charpentier < > emm.charpentier@free.fr> wrote: > >> > In natbib there is \citetext{priv.\ comm.} which is used to add a >> > textual citation to the bibliography that doesn't have a key >> > associated with it. >> >> Hmmm... why should you bother to reference a personal communication ? >> Such private communications may be mentionned in the text (possibly by >> a footnote) but can't be properly referenced (since there is nothing to >> refer to). If you feel that this communication must be referred to, you >> should give it some (written) support and (properly) reference this >> support. >> > > Who is to say why someone would bother. It is a command on page two of > http://tug.ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/natbib/natnotes.pdf that one can > use. > > It is also possible to use \nocite{*} as a cite, which includes all > references from a bibliography, and yet contains no key. Even funnier in a > way is \nocite{key} which just adds entries to the bibliography, but does > not cite them in the body of a document. > > Footnotes are not always allowed in publications, and for various reasons > not worth defending, in proposals one might want to put this in the > references because of space limitations. > > I count at least 10 examples of such personal communications in the > references in my library of ~1800 pdfs, so they aren't very common, but > certainly they exist in the wild. Whether people should do it or not, they > do. > > >> >> ISTR that at least CSL and BibLaTeX have types appropriates for a >> manuscript or a letter. You may also consider your own notes as >> documents and reference them (properly). >> >> > I don't see a way to get something like that in org-cite, since it >> > seems that a key is always required. >> >> Indeed : the key is, in relational algebra terms, the primary key of >> the bibliographic relation... >> > > I think of it more like a lambda function, but for a cite reference, where > you > define what you want inline. It is pretty common in scientific papers > and proposals to see that. > > It may not make sense to make an @misc bibtex entry for that purpose, > since it is a one time citation for that document, and is like a lambda > reference. > > >> > This isn't currently recognized as a cite, but something like this >> > seems like a reasonable solution to me. >> >> > [cite/text:@ private communication] >> >> Such special casing is probably a bugs' nest... err.. hive. And >> pointless, as explained /supra/. > > >> HTH, >> >> -- >> Emmanuel Charpentier >> >> > John >> >> --000000000000a7314005c78889b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Certainly citation of personal communications is common i= n the fields of history and philosophy of science, where it represents an e= ffort to responsibly represent the source of ideas owed to other persons.= =C2=A0 It's not really a question of whether you personally would do it= ; it's a question of whether org will support a practice that exists in= some real-world contexts.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=
On Mon., Jul. 19, 2021, 8:48 p.m. Joh= n Kitchin, <jkitchin@andrew.c= mu.edu> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 7:28 PM E= mmanuel Charpentier <emm.charpentier@free.fr> wrote:
> In natbib there is \citetext{priv.= \ comm.} which is used to add a
> textual citation to the bibliography that doesn't have a key
> associated with it.

Hmmm... why should you bother to reference a personal communication ?
Such private communications may be mentionned in the text (possibly by
a footnote) but can't be properly referenced (since there is nothing to=
refer to). If you feel that this communication must be referred to, you
should give it some (written) support and (properly) reference this
support.

Who is to say why someone would bot= her. It is a command on page two of
h= ttp://tug.ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/natbib/natnotes.pdf that one ca= n use.=C2=A0

It is also possible to use =C2=A0\nocite{*} as a cite, = which includes all
references from a bibliography, and yet contains no k= ey. Even funnier in a way is \nocite{key} which just adds entries to the bi= bliography, but does not cite them in the body of a document.

Footno= tes are not always allowed in publications, and for various reasons not wor= th defending, in proposals one might want to put this in the references bec= ause of space limitations.

I count at least 10 examples of such personal communic= ations in the references in my library of ~1800 pdfs, so they aren't ve= ry common, but certainly they exist in the wild. Whether people should do i= t or not, they do.
=C2=A0

ISTR that at least CSL and BibLaTeX have types appropriates for a
manuscript or a letter. You may also consider your own notes as
documents and reference them (properly).

> I don't see a way to get something like that in org-cite, since it=
> seems that a key is always required.

Indeed : the key is, in relational algebra terms, the primary key of
the bibliographic relation...

I think of it = more like a lambda function, but for a cite=C2=A0reference, where you
de= fine what you want inline. It is pretty common in scientific papers
and proposals to see that.=C2=A0

It may not make = sense to make an=C2=A0@misc bibtex entry for that purpose, since it is a on= e time citation for that document, and is like a lambda reference.


> This isn't currently recognized as a cite, but something like this=
> seems like a reasonable solution to me.

> [cite/text:@ private communication]

Such special casing is probably a bugs' nest... err.. hive. And
pointless, as explained /supra/.

HTH,

--
Emmanuel Charpentier

> John

--000000000000a7314005c78889b7--