From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6Mx6L7TypGEpYQAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:33:08 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id KONVK7TypGFmMAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:33:08 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EE67238C6 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:33:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36274 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrieQ-0000r8-0J for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:33:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mriL0-0003zF-St for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:13:02 -0500 Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::935] (port=38847 helo=mail-ua1-x935.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mriKy-0000Xq-Fy for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:13:02 -0500 Received: by mail-ua1-x935.google.com with SMTP id w23so34723231uao.5 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 07:12:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:cc; bh=aN0lfzBJasN2mS8dO5TRn8PTReTQbmNOL7D+AydKb6M=; b=HkhoX3yfVG4yBLLe1zNPGAch1Cs8Pg27VRFKtACcXIHhRGr5mUxi5MNRsWuorszLbe EDp/kNv5PRtGJuWscA+CF7o9lbcOZ6yrX37/UHZ6amSBQTeqRXm/k4yzMgshDSdD6CFT iYjaJT8haQBvyyl7galcm3KgJcTKRkbjwBCV5c1pTuLzoe335zClNEx1/dNxnRdHdD2q z76Oi/WaYl9fH/e7rDAJervbNyJV60wluLvPA75ljpot5q06gtgcb4Sy2XVNcu7pzSyV I4FLuzqKZ6HT+lixngVBlmc9VjgRE+pBj5jHVBnf1qsAFc38WuJhV+xA2emiSS9A4jW2 p82w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:cc; bh=aN0lfzBJasN2mS8dO5TRn8PTReTQbmNOL7D+AydKb6M=; b=N/gZl18jE2fsB5y9+zlrQsabMy5ZuHwe5kydFpZOh8iNTi2R6jkemp483vD3NXP9p+ gvFZU4ksux1kz2Q816Pg2pXY6oRACxRP30YMhPAIn+JH3hffHQalhiR5gZWr69QaI+1s 3YkPkO1W4ZHxvuHuASyuBWbO7Q2y4x1qqIJpu07yhOcDJ/PfzrRlkHYjElU1Xt1WVudb V9QTqJPqgd4JxkY6HdOxo4ZfNBrirCNlnsvNrQRqD6h3vVxEHnNOhEstebVewpXt+td7 ZRhe533gji2x5tGPz29zYkBIfnHQUZfyhiFXEwmMSffF2R/QSq3ZA/fNtzKwdmyvpPGN aWOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533UVkAdr4j8cL4+hLMo6ovNRrANUTWvB3iGn1VXeww8OCKyL7Y3 ODDhbnHPMELmGAUnghPszNgtz6liSSOUw1c1Twh3Kc89Qhs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzS8JRCZVV8LPiEMdlYVzfmU0y8Sin5UJ6MOJxKV/JOXOYSjDp6KbPm+l0XvBl/MLXNG4r64oakYHV7qV50aAc= X-Received: by 2002:a67:2dc5:: with SMTP id t188mr33145283vst.2.1638198777890; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 07:12:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <875ysb7v1r.fsf@gmail.com> <2021-11-29T14-12-55@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> In-Reply-To: <2021-11-29T14-12-55@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> From: Matt Price Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:12:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode Cc: Org Mode Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b26bb05d1eee095" X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::935 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::935; envelope-from=moptop99@gmail.com; helo=mail-ua1-x935.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: -0.0 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638199988; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=aN0lfzBJasN2mS8dO5TRn8PTReTQbmNOL7D+AydKb6M=; b=HNMVCsxg6sVMFos0HbQeyXmYC+dmoyB75HNMIFQJerjs+mT8sUQE+fAPTmZ5IOPG6NBjps /fon2h3dTwF/cK4KGySxlIlXD2SDE0Zk2H+eQlDX+et6fVqy9hvPg+q2n/vp0w9SN3WJEQ 3ToxPleFosLuGf3K1ZCmZntFxvgkvbFVa+hucz52dZERYzwBOyIvzrLz3xgE1Xn/7lxIvA cVjGX2mLPe5jCnYd9/KobRTRtiPy3H2G6FjQlR4yAv/gC6zg6GNTaxtqfuWRxU3hMpW/PG 3COKF4oQvy40pd05wf1mJBn6VJyEFoxLQtMmurmdY/s6gZHgNK6Zz/kRb9KZXA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638199988; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=DF5sSKfTGL90AiZ3+9/8it/pq3i6loKipVDyCbw6yx+tqqTadphIWfCzOIm8EjEcSioeWJ uca8gTXssFTkHka1yLwxqHswxAQUpjwDe4UIXNIHqsa1hso59tMFgyZdI2LlCbkq6L15AO aMU76njuLPgvwjCfYZyHKHN4Szz68FJn47RhHLw0+BiVFbxkF2vj+BHj4MRY754FzkvxNi FtjRQo1w6GRaVPHDkfm3LgoxTBU1jUM6kMZquPuzWSaQ95a8KNrhoxGvI6GmTr1lBTJ+fb Lqf0C4C/4PYJ+U60MT5+1+rohvYIMDW03Kyf/HQT2AsA7QvMJvlDgU1FlUC+UA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=HkhoX3yf; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.11 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=HkhoX3yf; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 1EE67238C6 X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: AHjb0Eu5I2nJ --0000000000003b26bb05d1eee095 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't have very thoughtful comments but I'll just say that I really do also like the idea of a formal syntax; that a staged standard seems to make sense to me, though I'm ignorant about how syntaxes are normally defined and managed; and am generally not super enthusiastic about the particular name that's been chosen. It seems like there are lots of people thinking in similar ways about related issues -- that is, whenever it's possible, treating org files as syntax trees rather than linear text trees.. The org-ml project comes to mind; so does the recent work on tree-sitter in emacs; and Ihor's recent thread on changing fontification. I guess it would be nice if the smarter-than-me people involved in all these projects are tracking each other somewhat to make sure efforts converge as much as possible. For me it would be really great to have better support for an org syntax in VSCode & in Node; I'm sure other people have their own priority areas. A syntax definition would surely help? On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 8:22 AM Karl Voit wrote: > Hi Tim, > > * Tim Cross wrote: > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > while I can appreciate the point you are making, I'm doubtful your > > suggestion will gain the traction necessary to work. > > You might be right. Only time will tell. ;-) > > > To me, it feels a little like the frequent posts from RMS in the > > emacs-devel list where he gets upset when people refer to Linux > > instead of GNU Linux. > > I disagree here. > > Linux vs. GNU/Linux are two different names for the same thing. > Org-mode is an Elisp implementation and Orgdown is just a syntax > definition. So they are completely different things. > > > To some extent, the distinction will be too subtle for many and > > often, it isn't clear whether an issue is a syntax definition > > (orgdown) or an implementation bug or just simply user > > misunderstanding. > > It seems to be the case that the name "Orgdown" is the reason why > the Org-mode community does not support the idea of an > implementation-agnostic definition of the syntax. Which is ... kinda > funny if you think about it. > > Well if the project is not working out, at least I made my point and > we continue to have all those misunderstandings and lack of Orgdown > support in 3rd party tools (because Org-mode is way too big). > > > Perhaps we just need a name for the markup syntax which doesn't actually > > reference 'org' at all - it simply is the markup syntax which org > > happens to use. A completely separate name might avoid confusion and > > would make it very clear that the markup syntax is not org mode. Problem > > is, naming is terribly difficult and I have no suggestions on what would > > be a good name. > > Oh, there is a very large danger here of getting something that is > not compatible with Org-mode any more. I don't think that this would > be a good thing. At least the different flavors killed the fun of > Markdown for me. > > > I have not yet viewed your video, but will certainly be doing so. Again, > > agree with the sentiment of what your trying to do, just not convinced > > it is compatible with basic human nature. > > Maybe we need to differ between the Org-mode community with > potential bias and the main target group of people who did use > Markdown in the past and never have heard of Org-mode before? > > -- > get mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML into Org-mode: > > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs < > Personal Information Management > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/pim/ > Emacs-related > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/emacs/ > > > --0000000000003b26bb05d1eee095 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't have very thoughtful comments but I'l= l just say that I really do also like the idea of a formal syntax; that a s= taged standard seems to make sense to me, though I'm ignorant about how= syntaxes are normally defined and managed;=C2=A0 and am generally not supe= r enthusiastic about the particular name that's been chosen.
=

It seems like there are lots of people thinking in simi= lar ways about related issues -- that is, whenever it's possible, treat= ing org files as syntax trees rather than linear text trees.. The org-ml pr= oject comes to mind; so does the recent work on tree-sitter in emacs; and I= hor's recent thread on changing fontification.=C2=A0 I guess it would b= e nice if the smarter-than-me people involved in all these projects are tra= cking each other somewhat to make sure efforts converge as much as possible= .

For me it would be really great to have bet= ter support for an org syntax in VSCode & in Node; I'm sure other p= eople have their own priority areas.=C2=A0 A syntax definition would surely= help?


On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 8:22 AM Karl Voit <devnull@karl-voit.at> wrote:
Hi Tim,

* Tim Cross <= theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Karl,
>
> while I can appreciate the point you are making, I'm doubtful your=
> suggestion will gain the traction necessary to work.

You might be right. Only time will tell. ;-)

> To me, it feels a little like the frequent posts from RMS in the
> emacs-devel list where he gets upset when people refer to Linux
> instead of GNU Linux.

I disagree here.

Linux vs. GNU/Linux are two different names for the same thing.
Org-mode is an Elisp implementation and Orgdown is just a syntax
definition. So they are completely different things.

> To some extent, the distinction will be too subtle for many and
> often, it isn't clear whether an issue is a syntax definition
> (orgdown) or an implementation bug or just simply user
> misunderstanding.

It seems to be the case that the name "Orgdown" is the reason why=
the Org-mode community does not support the idea of an
implementation-agnostic definition of the syntax. Which is ... kinda
funny if you think about it.

Well if the project is not working out, at least I made my point and
we continue to have all those misunderstandings and lack of Orgdown
support in 3rd party tools (because Org-mode is way too big).

> Perhaps we just need a name for the markup syntax which doesn't ac= tually
> reference 'org' at all - it simply is the markup syntax which = org
> happens to use. A completely separate name might avoid confusion and > would make it very clear that the markup syntax is not org mode. Probl= em
> is, naming is terribly difficult and I have no suggestions on what wou= ld
> be a good name.

Oh, there is a very large danger here of getting something that is
not compatible with Org-mode any more. I don't think that this would be a good thing. At least the different flavors killed the fun of
Markdown for me.

> I have not yet viewed your video, but will certainly be doing so. Agai= n,
> agree with the sentiment of what your trying to do, just not convinced=
> it is compatible with basic human nature.

Maybe we need to differ between the Org-mode community with
potential bias and the main target group of people who did use
Markdown in the past and never have heard of Org-mode before?

--
get mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML into Org-mode:<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> get Memacs from https://github.com/n= ovoid/Memacs <
Personal Information Management > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/pim/<= br> Emacs-related > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/emacs/


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