From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id SCQ3NO0mnl+aXgAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 03:09:33 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id aOH+L+0mnl8RAwAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 03:09:33 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62E3394042B for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 03:09:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58992 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZ3kJ-0002nI-VY for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 23:09:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36674) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZ3jy-0002n9-Pj for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 23:09:10 -0400 Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]:42675) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZ3jw-0002VL-Sj for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 23:09:10 -0400 Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id k21so11504163ioa.9 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 20:09:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TFWRVbzbTb2hjGMMifakcdA+aIy3UrVDwGT0EddQ3+8=; b=tV4KiZSstUUtOhFQ1uqdz3scqIsGSQyrkdbOj/NdEch4oRhhaoOqc6EJgdnnaeB7bd UeBtpAvUZ8PhHSl8TlYm3RRCgKQKMRmKkYuEaqFMfryFvcMl/3V/t016zxFkZivzD/Yh aI0EPT8EKdGGF9YhLuvN9xMNGGCk1uIfc2ccZ+32B61yroEIbdqQ2oLquIc625u6X+ht gG+AebKx2LuNM+qlg49EJ0o962SBUV8jEfLRpLPv1FBs8/7RKPuN+mPykU1+gMCRcTZU SIy0+2awYLqBdceR51pKFbZshtwBqP9dgrMhlAFhV7bvbTGq7KiIvy4RT3eJPlPudDtE JRqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TFWRVbzbTb2hjGMMifakcdA+aIy3UrVDwGT0EddQ3+8=; b=l/dCaUlmvEiYzTfMiUWlOgOaqoRyCKWG6zgO73bcKPU3k2Hy1V2wLiMxx7YtNC2c2Q /tHxV271Quwy+c77RmGCtT43+rYCmq2gwpk6UIH5T+mFCyYKbFC/BP37ttSbmECIgTBV ZRGJ5z0iqHqtcPbO5N0E6xtcWSGSVSlv7ThKzTXV46Eew/CnCxSHZ7d+9PqmcsiTDlow 9RsZkunafS88xP1HclTZlQoEXv3XSowwTdHpFwvaBS2xjA+g35/LdbqXByMrmfhpRrqG Z1Zdxx5w+c/SDsjBYS0PsDXS+YG8xgwlq2+BqGfT7jCYQWkFW608ufdLsZtxheSFHZji lzLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531EUNAFJh+rfsfnly3AG2RirlMlQv+vKRRpk8KVzr01zb0OreRG hnYnpQAqjjam/AQpYjQkVPAjWvXaziEpceBwpBI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwwb4J5afMESeE5sGr4npkSCMBapxh9UUW6Y0e6qq88DXovQ6U3yjmW1zoVzqAs0Jd1VYh8Ox+vkdgxoI6fUbI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6a0b:: with SMTP id x11mr6490440iog.205.1604200147343; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 20:09:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87361tgb96.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87361tgb96.fsf@web.de> From: Asa Zeren Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 23:08:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Thoughts on the standardization of Org To: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30; envelope-from=asaizeren@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd30.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=tV4KiZSs; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.71 X-TUID: pdCWTMDjxiKh On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:40 PM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > The most important point I see here is to avoid hindering the > development of org-mode within Emacs. While I definitely support enabling the further development of org-mode, an= d not restricting it via a standard, I do see some problems. > So the most important part of the standard would be areas it doesn=E2=80= =99t > standardize: Reserved for future use in org-mode. The issue with this is that by picking what areas to reserve, one has effectively limited the syntactic space that new features can use. This is = not a problem in and of itself, but does make the notion of leaving arbitrary syn= tax space reserved impossible, particularly, since in org-mode and similar mark= up languages, unadorned text is part of the content, rather than being ill for= med, as in programming languages. This also does not mean that tools can interpr= et part of what org-mode considers content as having some domain or implementa= tion specific meaning. For example, latex blocks. In my opinion, the translation= of these are a language extension by the org-export tool. Even within parts of= the Emacs org implementation, latex blocks should not be considered part of the= org language. For example, the line "* Headline?" in the example below is still identified as a headline, even though, if the area inside the \begin and \e= nd commands were supposed to be latex, not org, it should not be. #+begin_example org \begin{equation} * Headline? \end{equation} #+end_example > The most important point I see here is to avoid hindering the development= of > org-mode within Emacs. > These would then be sections that external tools must handle as > opaque text so their processing does not break usage within > org-mode. In these concerns I see one major flaw. The way they are worded at present implies that the Emacs implementation of org is the "one true implementatio= n," and that all tools in other environments are auxiliary. I believe that if w= e want org to grow, then it needs to become unbound from Emacs. It should bec= ome a universal markup format, which just happens to have had many tools first implemented for Emacs (even if Emacs still will probably remain the best wa= y to edit org files). Best, Asa On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:40 PM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > > > Asa Zeren writes: > > I would appreciate thoughts on these ideas about how to develop and > > org specification. > > The most important point I see here is to avoid hindering the > development of org-mode within Emacs. > > So the most important part of the standard would be areas it doesn=E2=80= =99t > standardize: Reserved for future use in org-mode. > > These would then be sections that external tools must handle as opaque > text so their processing does not break usage within org-mode. > > Best wishes, > Arne > -- > Unpolitisch sein > hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein > ohne es zu merken