Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Andrew Young]

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Hello Org-Mode mailing list,

My name is Andrew Young, and I would like to participate in an Org-Mode
project for GSoC 2012.  My application for the project 'Git merge tool for
Org files' can be found
here<http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2012/pwyl/1#>.
 I would appreciate as much feedback and criticism as possible.

I used the generic GNU Project student application template, which can be
found here <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/gnu>.

I have some specific questions:
1.  There is no implementation details or decisions in my application, just
a basic plan of what needs to be done.  Should I start researching
implementation details for my application?
2.  I would like to post my application on the community site Worg.  If
this is appropriate, what is the proper channel to request GIT access?

If this mailing list is not the appropriate place to discuss my
application, please let me know and then feel free to email me directly.  I
will also be spending as much time as possible on freenode #org-mode as
Pwyl.

Regards,
Andrew Young
youngar17@gmail.com

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Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Bastien]

Hi Andrew,

Andrew Young <youngar17@gmail.com> writes:

> My name is Andrew Young, and I would like to participate in an Org-Mode
> project for GSoC 2012.  My application for the project 'Git merge tool for
> Org files' can be found
> here<http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2012/pwyl/1#>.

Great!

>  I would appreciate as much feedback and criticism as possible.

First of all, make sure someone can co-mentor this project.  I'm willing
to mentor this (as the current maintainer it makes sense, especially for
people judging the project from the outside), but having Carsten as a
co-mentor would be a great win.  Make sure Carsten (cc'ed) is okay.

Carsten, being a co-mentor involves mainly three things:

1. registering on google-melange.com

2. from there, requesting to be a mentor for the GNU project

3. during the project, help the student and have IRC/phone meetings,
   at least when I'm not here (I expect to be off for 2-3 weeks this
   summer, I will tell when ASAP)

> I used the generic GNU Project student application template, which can be
> found here <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/gnu>.

1. First things thing: you should rewrite the "summary" section to
   remove the "I believe" and other informal writing from Carsten's 
   prose.  Make it yours, make it a real summary.

2. Refer to org-element.el when you mention the Data representation.
   org-element.el will be key in representing data and diffs between 
   data (at any level.)

3. Add a documentation section, explaining what doc you will write and
   how you you will write/host it (worg is fine.)

> I have some specific questions:
> 1.  There is no implementation details or decisions in my application, just
> a basic plan of what needs to be done.  Should I start researching
> implementation details for my application?

You can look at org-element.el for the data representation.

> 2.  I would like to post my application on the community site Worg.  If
> this is appropriate, what is the proper channel to request GIT access?

Send me your public key.

> If this mailing list is not the appropriate place to discuss my
> application, please let me know and then feel free to email me directly.  I
> will also be spending as much time as possible on freenode #org-mode as
> Pwyl.

This mailing list *is* the appropriate place, no worry.

Thanks again for your proposal, this would be a great plus for Org!

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Torsten Wagner]

Hi Andrew,

Reading this proposal and having a bit background in writing
proposals, I have the following suggestion:

* I'm not sure everyone (at least the one who review this) know what
org-mode is. There should be a very small summary about org-mode and
the key-benefit being plain text (which is why you can start this
project after all).

* In the way the proposal is written, you address org-mode users which
uses git (later you mention other CVS too). This actually makes, or at
least sound like, the proposal being only useful for a (small)
intersection of users namely org-mode AND (in the sense of an logic
AND) git-user.
I would find it more useful to describe this work as being an
extension for org-mode users;
** They can start to collaborate on a org-mode files, including
collaboration with users of possible other software tools (e.g.
mobileorg apps).
** Org-mode user can use a CVS system which is not only of interest
for collaboration but for keeping a chronological order of changes in
e.g. a project file.
** It makes org-mode a possible tool for software developers which can
now use org-files e.g. for documentation and notes beside there source
code in the same git repository.

All this points would show that the proposal is going to extend
org-mode instead of being "limited" useful for only a very particular
user-base. Finally, I guess it would be good to mention that this
project (and org-mode in general) is not limited to a OS but attracts
users of MS Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Simply to demonstrate that the
user-base can be expected to be rather large.
(Not sure if the GNU people like this ;) )

Torsten


On 5 April 2012 15:48, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Andrew Young <youngar17@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> My name is Andrew Young, and I would like to participate in an Org-Mode
>> project for GSoC 2012.  My application for the project 'Git merge tool for
>> Org files' can be found
>> here<http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2012/pwyl/1#>.
>
> Great!
>
>>  I would appreciate as much feedback and criticism as possible.
>
> First of all, make sure someone can co-mentor this project.  I'm willing
> to mentor this (as the current maintainer it makes sense, especially for
> people judging the project from the outside), but having Carsten as a
> co-mentor would be a great win.  Make sure Carsten (cc'ed) is okay.
>
> Carsten, being a co-mentor involves mainly three things:
>
> 1. registering on google-melange.com
>
> 2. from there, requesting to be a mentor for the GNU project
>
> 3. during the project, help the student and have IRC/phone meetings,
>   at least when I'm not here (I expect to be off for 2-3 weeks this
>   summer, I will tell when ASAP)
>
>> I used the generic GNU Project student application template, which can be
>> found here <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/gnu>.
>
> 1. First things thing: you should rewrite the "summary" section to
>   remove the "I believe" and other informal writing from Carsten's
>   prose.  Make it yours, make it a real summary.
>
> 2. Refer to org-element.el when you mention the Data representation.
>   org-element.el will be key in representing data and diffs between
>   data (at any level.)
>
> 3. Add a documentation section, explaining what doc you will write and
>   how you you will write/host it (worg is fine.)
>
>> I have some specific questions:
>> 1.  There is no implementation details or decisions in my application, just
>> a basic plan of what needs to be done.  Should I start researching
>> implementation details for my application?
>
> You can look at org-element.el for the data representation.
>
>> 2.  I would like to post my application on the community site Worg.  If
>> this is appropriate, what is the proper channel to request GIT access?
>
> Send me your public key.
>
>> If this mailing list is not the appropriate place to discuss my
>> application, please let me know and then feel free to email me directly.  I
>> will also be spending as much time as possible on freenode #org-mode as
>> Pwyl.
>
> This mailing list *is* the appropriate place, no worry.
>
> Thanks again for your proposal, this would be a great plus for Org!
>
> Best,
>
> --
>  Bastien
>

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Torsten Wagner]

Hi Andrew,

Reading this proposal and having a bit background in writing
proposals, I have the following suggestion:

* I'm not sure everyone (at least the one who review this) know what
org-mode is. There should be a very small summary about org-mode and
the key-benefit being plain text (which is why you can start this
project after all).

* In the way the proposal is written, you address org-mode users which
uses git (later you mention other CVS too). This actually makes, or at
least sound like, the proposal being only useful for a (small)
intersection of users namely org-mode AND (in the sense of an logic
AND) git-user.
I would find it more useful to describe this work as being an
extension for org-mode users;
** They can start to collaborate on a org-mode files, including
collaboration with users of possible other software tools (e.g.
mobileorg apps).
** Org-mode user can use a CVS system which is not only of interest
for collaboration but for keeping a chronological order of changes in
e.g. a project file.
** It makes org-mode a possible tool for software developers which can
now use org-files e.g. for documentation and notes beside there source
code in the same git repository.

All this points would show that the proposal is going to extend
org-mode instead of being "limited" useful for only a very particular
user-base. Finally, I guess it would be good to mention that this
project (and org-mode in general) is not limited to a OS but attracts
users of MS Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Simply to demonstrate that the
user-base can be expected to be rather large.
(Not sure if the GNU people like this ;) )

Torsten


On 5 April 2012 15:48, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Andrew Young <youngar17@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> My name is Andrew Young, and I would like to participate in an Org-Mode
>> project for GSoC 2012.  My application for the project 'Git merge tool for
>> Org files' can be found
>> here<http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2012/pwyl/1#>.
>
> Great!
>
>>  I would appreciate as much feedback and criticism as possible.
>
> First of all, make sure someone can co-mentor this project.  I'm willing
> to mentor this (as the current maintainer it makes sense, especially for
> people judging the project from the outside), but having Carsten as a
> co-mentor would be a great win.  Make sure Carsten (cc'ed) is okay.
>
> Carsten, being a co-mentor involves mainly three things:
>
> 1. registering on google-melange.com
>
> 2. from there, requesting to be a mentor for the GNU project
>
> 3. during the project, help the student and have IRC/phone meetings,
>   at least when I'm not here (I expect to be off for 2-3 weeks this
>   summer, I will tell when ASAP)
>
>> I used the generic GNU Project student application template, which can be
>> found here <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/gnu>.
>
> 1. First things thing: you should rewrite the "summary" section to
>   remove the "I believe" and other informal writing from Carsten's
>   prose.  Make it yours, make it a real summary.
>
> 2. Refer to org-element.el when you mention the Data representation.
>   org-element.el will be key in representing data and diffs between
>   data (at any level.)
>
> 3. Add a documentation section, explaining what doc you will write and
>   how you you will write/host it (worg is fine.)
>
>> I have some specific questions:
>> 1.  There is no implementation details or decisions in my application, just
>> a basic plan of what needs to be done.  Should I start researching
>> implementation details for my application?
>
> You can look at org-element.el for the data representation.
>
>> 2.  I would like to post my application on the community site Worg.  If
>> this is appropriate, what is the proper channel to request GIT access?
>
> Send me your public key.
>
>> If this mailing list is not the appropriate place to discuss my
>> application, please let me know and then feel free to email me directly.  I
>> will also be spending as much time as possible on freenode #org-mode as
>> Pwyl.
>
> This mailing list *is* the appropriate place, no worry.
>
> Thanks again for your proposal, this would be a great plus for Org!
>
> Best,
>
> --
>  Bastien
>

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Andrew Young]

Hi,

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 3:46 AM, Torsten Wagner <torsten.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
>
> Reading this proposal and having a bit background in writing
> proposals, I have the following suggestion:
>
> * I'm not sure everyone (at least the one who review this) know what
> org-mode is. There should be a very small summary about org-mode and
> the key-benefit being plain text (which is why you can start this
> project after all).

This raises the point that I have no idea at all who will be reviewing
my proposal. I originally wrote the proposal targeting Org-Mode devs
as the audience.  This has provided some important insight to my
application. Thank you!

>
> * In the way the proposal is written, you address org-mode users which
> uses git (later you mention other CVS too). This actually makes, or at
> least sound like, the proposal being only useful for a (small)
> intersection of users namely org-mode AND (in the sense of an logic
> AND) git-user.
> I would find it more useful to describe this work as being an
> extension for org-mode users;
> ** They can start to collaborate on a org-mode files, including
> collaboration with users of possible other software tools (e.g.
> mobileorg apps).
> ** Org-mode user can use a CVS system which is not only of interest
> for collaboration but for keeping a chronological order of changes in
> e.g. a project file.
> ** It makes org-mode a possible tool for software developers which can
> now use org-files e.g. for documentation and notes beside there source
> code in the same git repository.
>
> All this points would show that the proposal is going to extend
> org-mode instead of being "limited" useful for only a very particular
> user-base. Finally, I guess it would be good to mention that this
> project (and org-mode in general) is not limited to a OS but attracts
> users of MS Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Simply to demonstrate that the
> user-base can be expected to be rather large.
> (Not sure if the GNU people like this ;) )
>
> Torsten

These are all great suggestions and points.  This triggered a complete
rewrite of the benefits section.  Thank you for your help.

Regards,
Andrew Young

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Andrew Young]

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Hello Bastien,

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Andrew Young <youngar17@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> My name is Andrew Young, and I would like to participate in an Org-Mode
>> project for GSoC 2012.  My application for the project 'Git merge tool for
>> Org files' can be found
>> here<http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2012/pwyl/1#>.
>
> Great!
>
>>  I would appreciate as much feedback and criticism as possible.
>
> First of all, make sure someone can co-mentor this project.  I'm willing
> to mentor this (as the current maintainer it makes sense, especially for
> people judging the project from the outside), but having Carsten as a
> co-mentor would be a great win.  Make sure Carsten (cc'ed) is okay.

I will send him a personal (private) request.

>
> Carsten, being a co-mentor involves mainly three things:
>
> 1. registering on google-melange.com
>
> 2. from there, requesting to be a mentor for the GNU project
>
> 3. during the project, help the student and have IRC/phone meetings,
>   at least when I'm not here (I expect to be off for 2-3 weeks this
>   summer, I will tell when ASAP)
>
>> I used the generic GNU Project student application template, which can be
>> found here <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/gnu>.
>
> 1. First things thing: you should rewrite the "summary" section to
>   remove the "I believe" and other informal writing from Carsten's
>   prose.  Make it yours, make it a real summary.

I found the GNU Application template confusing, and was not sure if
the summary was supposed to be written by me, or copied from the ideas
page (to clarify what project idea I was referring to).  I followed
your advice and wrote my own project summary, since that seems like
the better idea.

>
> 2. Refer to org-element.el when you mention the Data representation.
>   org-element.el will be key in representing data and diffs between
>   data (at any level.)
>
> 3. Add a documentation section, explaining what doc you will write and
>   how you you will write/host it (worg is fine.)
>

Thanks for the pointers. I've incorporated your advice into the proposal.

>> I have some specific questions:
>> 1.  There is no implementation details or decisions in my application, just
>> a basic plan of what needs to be done.  Should I start researching
>> implementation details for my application?
>
> You can look at org-element.el for the data representation.
>
>> 2.  I would like to post my application on the community site Worg.  If
>> this is appropriate, what is the proper channel to request GIT access?
>
> Send me your public key.
>
>> If this mailing list is not the appropriate place to discuss my
>> application, please let me know and then feel free to email me directly.  I
>> will also be spending as much time as possible on freenode #org-mode as
>> Pwyl.
>
> This mailing list *is* the appropriate place, no worry.
>
> Thanks again for your proposal, this would be a great plus for Org!
>
> Best,
>
> --
>  Bastien

Thanks again for your suggestions and pointers.

My public key is attached.

Regards,
Andrew

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Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Bastien]

Hi Andrew,

Andrew Young <youngar17@gmail.com> writes:

> I will send him a personal (private) request.

Ok.

> I found the GNU Application template confusing, and was not sure if
> the summary was supposed to be written by me, or copied from the ideas
> page (to clarify what project idea I was referring to).  I followed
> your advice and wrote my own project summary, since that seems like
> the better idea.

Yes it is!

> Thanks again for your suggestions and pointers.

You're welcome.

> My public key is attached.

You can now push changes to Worg.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Thorsten]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Bastien, hi Andrew,

> You can now push changes to Worg.

I just added a directory 'student-projects' under the gsoc2012 directory
on worg, accessible through:
http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/gsoc2012/index.html
(see links at end of page)

which might be used by Andrew, me and others. 

Andrew: I'm preparing my application for the Orgmode/Picolisp project,
which turned into a bugtracker for Org-mode project, right now. If you
want, we can communicate (here or privately).

Bastien: thanks for your suggestions (private mail), gave me quite a lot
of thinks to chew - I'm busy with that right now. 

What I really would need to decide upon at the very beginning is the git
workflow - not too complicated, but somehow scalable for the future is
the project succeeds. Any suggestion besides having a master and a
private branch? Should I already consider a workflow similar to the one
used by you for Org-mode?
-- 
cheers,
Thorsten

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Bastien]

Thorsten <quintfall@googlemail.com> writes:

> Bastien: thanks for your suggestions (private mail), gave me quite a lot
> of thinks to chew - I'm busy with that right now. 

Good -- REMINDER for all three future-GSoC students out there:
the deadline is in 28 hours.

Good luck!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Bastien]

Thorsten <quintfall@googlemail.com> writes:

> What I really would need to decide upon at the very beginning is the git
> workflow - not too complicated, but somehow scalable for the future is
> the project succeeds. Any suggestion besides having a master and a
> private branch? 

Start with a git repo somewhere.

Maybe prefer gitorious to github, GNU admins tend to be sensible
to such nice little attentions.

We can also consider hosting a new git project on orgmode.org, 
if your needs are pretty basics.

> Should I already consider a workflow similar to the one used by you
> for Org-mode?

I'd say no: start with only one public master branch (and small local
branches when needed, of course), and change this workflow when needed.

If there are changes that need to be part of Org at some point, we will
create a branch for you, just as we have feature branch right now.

HTH,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Thorsten]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Thorsten <quintfall@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> What I really would need to decide upon at the very beginning is the git
>> workflow - not too complicated, but somehow scalable for the future is
>> the project succeeds. Any suggestion besides having a master and a
>> private branch? 
>
> Start with a git repo somewhere.
>
> Maybe prefer gitorious to github, GNU admins tend to be sensible
> to such nice little attentions.

Its all done on github now, I wasn't aware that gitorious is a GNU
project, it seemed everybody is on github. But github is terribly slow.
I have (free private 2GB) repos at assembla too, and pushing to
assembla is really fast, while pushes to github take quite some time
even if only a typo was changed. 

> We can also consider hosting a new git project on orgmode.org, 
> if your needs are pretty basics.

I think github and worg will suffice for code and docs, maybe with some
more private stuff on assembla.

>> Should I already consider a workflow similar to the one used by you
>> for Org-mode?
>
> I'd say no: start with only one public master branch (and small local
> branches when needed, of course), and change this workflow when needed.

Ok, I keep it simple then.

> If there are changes that need to be part of Org at some point, we will
> create a branch for you, just as we have feature branch right now.

at this simple level git seems to be really fun, while following your
discussions with regards to org/git & emacs/bzr clearly shows that it all
can end up in a nightmare of complexity ;)

Thanks for the tips

-- 
cheers,
Thorsten

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Andrew Young]

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Thorsten <quintfall@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
> Hi Bastien, hi Andrew,
>
> > You can now push changes to Worg.
>
> I just added a directory 'student-projects' under the gsoc2012 directory
> on worg, accessible through:
> http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/gsoc2012/index.html
> (see links at end of page)
>
> which might be used by Andrew, me and others.
>

Thank you, I'll fill up a project page as soon as I am able.

> Andrew: I'm preparing my application for the Orgmode/Picolisp project,
> which turned into a bugtracker for Org-mode project, right now. If you
> want, we can communicate (here or privately).
>

Of course.  Let me know if you need anything.

> Bastien: thanks for your suggestions (private mail), gave me quite a lot
> of thinks to chew - I'm busy with that right now.
>
> What I really would need to decide upon at the very beginning is the git
> workflow - not too complicated, but somehow scalable for the future is
> the project succeeds. Any suggestion besides having a master and a
> private branch? Should I already consider a workflow similar to the one
> used by you for Org-mode?
> --
> cheers,
> Thorsten
>
>

I think only 8 hours left until the deadline!

Best.
Andrew Young

Re: Google Summer of Code 2012 Student Application

[Carsten Dominik]

On 5.4.2012, at 13:49, Andrew Young wrote:

> Hello Bastien,
> 
> On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Hi Andrew,
>> 
>> Andrew Young <youngar17@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> My name is Andrew Young, and I would like to participate in an Org-Mode
>>> project for GSoC 2012.  My application for the project 'Git merge tool for
>>> Org files' can be found
>>> here<http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2012/pwyl/1#>.
>> 
>> Great!
>> 
>>>  I would appreciate as much feedback and criticism as possible.
>> 
>> First of all, make sure someone can co-mentor this project.  I'm willing
>> to mentor this (as the current maintainer it makes sense, especially for
>> people judging the project from the outside), but having Carsten as a
>> co-mentor would be a great win.  Make sure Carsten (cc'ed) is okay.
> 
> I will send him a personal (private) request.
> 
>> 
>> Carsten, being a co-mentor involves mainly three things:
>> 
>> 1. registering on google-melange.com

I have registered as a mentor, username cdominik.  I have not yet found how to do:

>> 
>> 2. from there, requesting to be a mentor for the GNU project
>> 
>> 3. during the project, help the student and have IRC/phone meetings,
>>   at least when I'm not here (I expect to be off for 2-3 weeks this
>>   summer, I will tell when ASAP)

Yes.  I am a phone/skype guy, not an irc guy.

- Carsten

>> 
>>> I used the generic GNU Project student application template, which can be
>>> found here <http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/gnu>.
>> 
>> 1. First things thing: you should rewrite the "summary" section to
>>   remove the "I believe" and other informal writing from Carsten's
>>   prose.  Make it yours, make it a real summary.
> 
> I found the GNU Application template confusing, and was not sure if
> the summary was supposed to be written by me, or copied from the ideas
> page (to clarify what project idea I was referring to).  I followed
> your advice and wrote my own project summary, since that seems like
> the better idea.
> 
>> 
>> 2. Refer to org-element.el when you mention the Data representation.
>>   org-element.el will be key in representing data and diffs between
>>   data (at any level.)
>> 
>> 3. Add a documentation section, explaining what doc you will write and
>>   how you you will write/host it (worg is fine.)
>> 
> 
> Thanks for the pointers. I've incorporated your advice into the proposal.
> 
>>> I have some specific questions:
>>> 1.  There is no implementation details or decisions in my application, just
>>> a basic plan of what needs to be done.  Should I start researching
>>> implementation details for my application?
>> 
>> You can look at org-element.el for the data representation.
>> 
>>> 2.  I would like to post my application on the community site Worg.  If
>>> this is appropriate, what is the proper channel to request GIT access?
>> 
>> Send me your public key.
>> 
>>> If this mailing list is not the appropriate place to discuss my
>>> application, please let me know and then feel free to email me directly.  I
>>> will also be spending as much time as possible on freenode #org-mode as
>>> Pwyl.
>> 
>> This mailing list *is* the appropriate place, no worry.
>> 
>> Thanks again for your proposal, this would be a great plus for Org!
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> --
>>  Bastien
> 
> Thanks again for your suggestions and pointers.
> 
> My public key is attached.
> 
> Regards,
> Andrew
> <youngar17@gmail.com.pub>