Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[Daryl Manning]

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I think this is a great idea. I actually looked at the two org-mode
implementations on VS Code a long while back and was impressed they'd
gotten as far as they had. Besides the basic support they already have, for
me the big win for them would be able to take advantage of the emacs plugin
ecosystem somehow (though I have no idea how you'd run some sort of in-VSC
lisp interpreter to make some of the plugins work). I know, however, that
the big org-mode boon for me is having packages like deft,
org-super-agenda, org-journal etc as well and being able to have
org-agenda/todos and org-contacts working in there.

What did you have in mind, exactly?  (cuz strangely I am using VS Code more
and more for coding, and emacs more as a note, journaling, organization,
and GTD app... 8-/ )

Daryl.

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 12:01 AM <emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org> wrote:

> Send Emacs-orgmode mailing list submissions to
>         emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:55:27 -0500
> From: George Mauer <gmauer@gmail.com>
> To: emacs-orgmode <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
> Subject: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud
> Message-ID:
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> CA+pajWK0_jiVdFwrHepxLU21vL+iVpAYN8zArVUDvVMpPdjV0Q@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> With VSCode becoming ever-popular it seems like there might be some value
> in getting org mode working there simply as a way of promoting org as an
> excellent literate coding notebook.
>
> VSCode already has a halfway decent org-mode but it doesn’t support
> anything from Babel. I’m trying to think of relatively easy ways of adding
> that ability. Here’s a thought: Most of babel that technically works
> against the document itself, it doesn’t really need much document
> integration with the editor. So could you get it working in vscode so long
> as someone has a properly configured version of emacs installed locally?
> “Evaluate/Export/etc” would just write the document, then use emacs to run
> the appropriate commands on it and refresh the document view.
>
> Of course features like the separate editor for src blocks and
> folding #results would be nice too, but if the basics could work that would
> be a huge win for org.
>
> Any thoughts on the feasibility of this?
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Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[George Mauer]

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With VSCode becoming ever-popular it seems like there might be some value
in getting org mode working there simply as a way of promoting org as an
excellent literate coding notebook.

VSCode already has a halfway decent org-mode but it doesn’t support
anything from Babel. I’m trying to think of relatively easy ways of adding
that ability. Here’s a thought: Most of babel that technically works
against the document itself, it doesn’t really need much document
integration with the editor. So could you get it working in vscode so long
as someone has a properly configured version of emacs installed locally?
“Evaluate/Export/etc” would just write the document, then use emacs to run
the appropriate commands on it and refresh the document view.

Of course features like the separate editor for src blocks and
folding #results would be nice too, but if the basics could work that would
be a huge win for org.

Any thoughts on the feasibility of this?

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Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[Bastien]

Hi George,

George Mauer <gmauer@gmail.com> writes:

> Any thoughts on the feasibility of this?

Well, I suggest you discuss with the developers of VS Code themselves.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[stardiviner]

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Hash: SHA256


George Mauer <gmauer@gmail.com> writes:

> With VSCode becoming ever-popular it seems like there might be some value
> in getting org mode working there simply as a way of promoting org as an
> excellent literate coding notebook.
>
> VSCode already has a halfway decent org-mode but it doesn’t support
> anything from Babel. I’m trying to think of relatively easy ways of adding
> that ability. Here’s a thought: Most of babel that technically works
> against the document itself, it doesn’t really need much document
> integration with the editor. So could you get it working in vscode so long
> as someone has a properly configured version of emacs installed locally?
> “Evaluate/Export/etc” would just write the document, then use emacs to run
> the appropriate commands on it and refresh the document view.

Use Emacs as backend for Org Mode Babel to run in VS Code, This sound a bit of
overthinking. Why not just use Org Mode in Emacs directly? As my personal
opinion, Org Mode is just a document format (of course it's deeply integrated
with Emacs!!) But VS Code can do it in similar way. I really suggest you think
it clearly. And help VS Code team archive this.

And I really don't think suggesting improvement of Org Mode on VS Code is an
good idea here.

Any idea welcome of course. :)

>
> Of course features like the separate editor for src blocks and
> folding #results would be nice too, but if the basics could work that would
> be a huge win for org.
>
> Any thoughts on the feasibility of this?


- -- 
[ stardiviner ]
       I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express.

       Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
       IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner
       GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3
      
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Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[Tim Cross]

stardiviner <numbchild@gmail.com> writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
>
> George Mauer <gmauer@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> With VSCode becoming ever-popular it seems like there might be some value
>> in getting org mode working there simply as a way of promoting org as an
>> excellent literate coding notebook.
>>
>> VSCode already has a halfway decent org-mode but it doesn’t support
>> anything from Babel. I’m trying to think of relatively easy ways of adding
>> that ability. Here’s a thought: Most of babel that technically works
>> against the document itself, it doesn’t really need much document
>> integration with the editor. So could you get it working in vscode so long
>> as someone has a properly configured version of emacs installed locally?
>> “Evaluate/Export/etc” would just write the document, then use emacs to run
>> the appropriate commands on it and refresh the document view.
>
> Use Emacs as backend for Org Mode Babel to run in VS Code, This sound a bit of
> overthinking. Why not just use Org Mode in Emacs directly? As my personal
> opinion, Org Mode is just a document format (of course it's deeply integrated
> with Emacs!!) But VS Code can do it in similar way. I really suggest you think
> it clearly. And help VS Code team archive this.
>

I think the main flaw in using Emacs as the backend is that a correctly
configured emacs to support or the org features, especially wrt babel
and document export, is a non-trivial task. It is not as simple as
installing Emacs and a couple of setq lines in an init file.

Org relies heavily on a lot of external tools, especially TeX/LaTeX.
Anyone who is going to put in the effort to configure Emacs is unlikely
to want to also configure VSCode and vice versa, plus you would need to
run both VSCode and at least the emacs server/daemon to make this work.

Having said that, it could be an OK proof of concept to perhaps spark
interest in developing a VSCode version which has the babel/export
features (I'm assuming the existing implementation already handles the
basic org markup syntax etc). In the long term, a VSCode version of org
would probably benefit more if it uses other VSCode plugins for babel
and export. Starting with the languages which have REPLs would likely be
a good first step and I suspect there is already a LaTeX plugin. It will
likely be necessary to work with the various authors of these other
VSCode plugins as you will probably need them to add additional API
hooks to use. 

Probably the best assistance org-mode can provide would be definitive
and current documentation on the markup syntax and APIs for babel and
export. A tough task given the scope, but things are probably pretty
stable in this area now (though I'm not sure about babel and handling of
returned values and errors etc). 

-- 
Tim Cross

Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[Bastien]

Hi Tim,

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> Probably the best assistance org-mode can provide would be definitive
> and current documentation on the markup syntax and APIs for babel and
> export.

Agreed -- help is always welcome on this.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[Bastien]

Hi,

stardiviner <numbchild@gmail.com> writes:

> And I really don't think suggesting improvement of Org Mode on VS Code is an
> good idea here.

This list is both about Org as a set of tools for GNU Emacs and Org as
a text format used for .org files.

So any topic that is relevant to either Org as an Emacs mode or Org as
a text format is relevant here.

This also mean that, yes, our focus is not on discussing how the org
format is supported on *any* tools.  I don't think we should forbid
such discussions, it's just that they will be more effective when
brought on these other tools forums.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[stardiviner]

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Hash: SHA256


Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi,
>
> stardiviner <numbchild@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> And I really don't think suggesting improvement of Org Mode on VS Code is an
>> good idea here.
>
> This list is both about Org as a set of tools for GNU Emacs and Org as
> a text format used for .org files.
>
> So any topic that is relevant to either Org as an Emacs mode or Org as
> a text format is relevant here.
>
> This also mean that, yes, our focus is not on discussing how the org
> format is supported on *any* tools.  I don't think we should forbid
> such discussions, it's just that they will be more effective when
> brought on these other tools forums.

Sounds reasonable.

- -- 
[ stardiviner ]
       I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express.

       Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
       IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner
       GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3
      
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Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[Jack Kamm]

It would be very good indeed for org-babel if it could be ported to
other editors. One of the biggest drawbacks of org-babel notebooks is
that I can't collaborate with my colleagues on them, since I can't
expect them to use Emacs.

Aside from VSCode, I think RStudio would be an excellent target for a
few reasons:

- Literate programming is already popular among R users (see also:
  knitr, sweave, Rmarkdown)
- There is a strong ob-R community here
- There are some prominent Emacs users among the Rstudio developers
  (e.g. Lionel Henry, who I think is both an Rstudio and ESS developer)

However, this would be a massive undertaking, and ultimately would need
a volunteer to step up to the plate. I don't have any bandwidth to do
this in the foreseeable future but dream of working on it one day. The
biggest downside -- it would require spending considerable time outside
Emacs!

Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[Fabrice Popineau]

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Le dim. 24 mai 2020 à 15:07, Jack Kamm <jackkamm@gmail.com> a écrit :

> It would be very good indeed for org-babel if it could be ported to
> other editors. One of the biggest drawbacks of org-babel notebooks is
> that I can't collaborate with my colleagues on them, since I can't
> expect them to use Emacs.


+1000 on this one !

Fabrice

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Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[rey-coyrehourcq]

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Hi,

Really cool discussion here.

My two cents, Jupyter & Kernel on various langage, which have a very
large community, could be an interesting backend for org-babel on
VSCode or anyeditoryouwantusehere. 

Lot of things start to appear to collaborate online around
online/scientific cnotebook/literate programing this last year, and that continue, for example i discover recently :
Stencila : https://github.com/stencila=

org-babel / org-mode outside of emacs has a great potential to lead an
alternative to other markdown (RStudio / Jupyter) solution.

Best regards

Le dimanche 24 mai 2020 à 06:06 -0700, Jack Kamm a écrit :
> It would be very good indeed for org-babel if it could be ported to
> other editors. One of the biggest drawbacks of org-babel notebooks is
> that I can't collaborate with my colleagues on them, since I can't
> expect them to use Emacs.
> 
> Aside from VSCode, I think RStudio would be an excellent target for a
> few reasons:
> 
> - Literate programming is already popular among R users (see also:
>   knitr, sweave, Rmarkdown)
> - There is a strong ob-R community here
> - There are some prominent Emacs users among the Rstudio developers
>   (e.g. Lionel Henry, who I think is both an Rstudio and ESS
> developer)
> 
> However, this would be a massive undertaking, and ultimately would
> need
> a volunteer to step up to the plate. I don't have any bandwidth to do
> this in the foreseeable future but dream of working on it one day.
> The
> biggest downside -- it would require spending considerable time
> outside
> Emacs!
> 
-- 


Sébastien Rey-Coyrehourcq
Research Engineer UMR IDEES
02.35.14.69.30

{Stronger security for your email, follow EFF tutorial : 
https://ssd.eff.org/}



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Re: Improving Org Mode for VSCode - Thinking Aloud

[Matt Price]

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There are a number of interesting topics here. Like others, I would be very
keen to share my org-based projects with non-Emacs users. I also only have
very limited time & skills to contribute.  There is an existing extension
for org-mode on vscode here:
https://github.com/vscode-org-mode/vscode-org-mode.  That might be the best
place to help out. One piece of low-hanging fruit would be simply to add an
HTML renderer to that plugin (https://github.com/orgapp/orgajs is the
obvious choice). A full-on literate programming engine seems like a very
tough thing to engineer, but perhaps it's possible to imagine a new
architecture in which there are, as you suggest, various code
interpretation engines. It's an exciting idea; I wonder if it's possible to
explore the possibilities in a more concrete and structured way?

On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 4:20 PM rey-coyrehourcq <
sebastien.rey-coyrehourcq@univ-rouen.fr> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Really cool discussion here.
>
> My two cents, Jupyter & Kernel on various langage, which have a very
> large community, could be an interesting backend for org-babel on
> VSCode or anyeditoryouwantusehere.
>
> Lot of things start to appear to collaborate online around
> online/scientific cnotebook/literate programing this last year, and that
> continue, for example i discover recently :
> Stencila : https://github.com/stencila=
>
> org-babel / org-mode outside of emacs has a great potential to lead an
> alternative to other markdown (RStudio / Jupyter) solution.
>
> Best regards
>
> Le dimanche 24 mai 2020 à 06:06 -0700, Jack Kamm a écrit :
> > It would be very good indeed for org-babel if it could be ported to
> > other editors. One of the biggest drawbacks of org-babel notebooks is
> > that I can't collaborate with my colleagues on them, since I can't
> > expect them to use Emacs.
> >
> > Aside from VSCode, I think RStudio would be an excellent target for a
> > few reasons:
> >
> > - Literate programming is already popular among R users (see also:
> >   knitr, sweave, Rmarkdown)
> > - There is a strong ob-R community here
> > - There are some prominent Emacs users among the Rstudio developers
> >   (e.g. Lionel Henry, who I think is both an Rstudio and ESS
> > developer)
> >
> > However, this would be a massive undertaking, and ultimately would
> > need
> > a volunteer to step up to the plate. I don't have any bandwidth to do
> > this in the foreseeable future but dream of working on it one day.
> > The
> > biggest downside -- it would require spending considerable time
> > outside
> > Emacs!
> >
> --
>
>
> Sébastien Rey-Coyrehourcq
> Research Engineer UMR IDEES
> 02.35.14.69.30
>
> {Stronger security for your email, follow EFF tutorial :
> https://ssd.eff.org/}
>
>
>

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