From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Aankhen Subject: Re: how to change the headline starter * Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 13:38:55 +0530 Message-ID: References: <1240511841.2591431310664738370.JavaMail.root@zimbra29-e5.priv.proxad.net> <874o2optjt.fsf@praet.org> <87hb6netf6.fsf@nzebook.haselwarter.org> <87hb6ml6ta.fsf@praet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:40609) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QiMPd-0008E1-FV for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 04:09:18 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QiMPc-00038t-7q for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 04:09:17 -0400 Received: from mail-vx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.220.169]:41399) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QiMPc-00038m-4d for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 04:09:16 -0400 Received: by vxg38 with SMTP id 38so2114608vxg.0 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 01:09:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87hb6ml6ta.fsf@praet.org> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Pieter Praet , Philipp Haselwarter , Org mailing list Hi, On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 18:29, Pieter Praet wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 12:21:01 +0200, Philipp Haselwarter wrote: >> No need to go all flaming because someone thinks the looks of the >> software matter. TBH I don't see what's wrong with that or in what way >> that's the opposite of efficiency. > > What I considered "wrong" about it was the OP implying -twice- that a > frivolous feature request such as this could be marked as being a > full-caps "BUG" [1,2]. > > Considering all the time and effort Org-mode's selfless developers have > sacrificed to deliver this mindblowing piece of software to us, this > could easily be perceived as an insult in my opinion, regardless of > whether or not it was intentional. I agree. > I know that this doesn't justify the tone of my impulsive reply in any > way whatsoever, and I do apologize for disrupting the serene atmosphere > which characterizes this list, but... I sent it, and I stand behind it 10= 0%. > > Besides, how could someone who cares about how slick and shiny their > software looks *possibly* end up using Emacs? Pretty easy: you see that Emacs massively increases your productivity, and you use it. The genius of Emacs lies not in being ugly or being minimalistic (now that would be something) but in being an amazingly customizable platform. Being nice to look at would not in any way automatically render it useless. >> Abstracting the user interface from the logic is an important paradigm, >> especially for something like org-mode that you want to run on a wide >> range of devices =E2=80=93 think 24" monitors vs 3" mobile devices. You = don't >> want to have too much of the looks hardcoded. > > Exactly! That is, believe it or not, the whole point. > > What the OP is suggesting effectively nullifies the separation between > model and view in that it would allow changing Org-mode's outlining > markup at its very core, potentially leading to a wildgrowth of "custom" > markup formats which could hardly be called "plain text" anymore, not to > mention the avalanche of PEBCAK-related bug reports it may unleash. I=E2=80=99m very confused. Couldn=E2=80=99t the compatibility and standard= ization problems be avoided entirely by indicating the character at the top of the file if it differs from the norm? And why would, say, changing the headline starter from =E2=80=98*=E2=80=99 = to =E2=80=98+=E2=80=99 make it any less of a plain text format? Or, for that matter, changing it to =E2=80=98=E2=86=92=E2=80=99? These are all valid UTF-8 characters that = any Unicode-aware application is expected to understand and deal with. >> Now if you don't find that to be one of /your/ personal top priorities = =E2=80=93 >> fine, don't bother. But going all bashing because someone insists on his >> opinion that this is important? I don't see what you're trying to >> achieve here. > > Pretty much since the very beginning, Org-mode has been described as: > =C2=A0"Org is a mode for keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, and doing > =C2=A0project planning with a fast and effective plain-text system." > > Seeing as how this description hasn't changed ever since, one can safely > assume that keeping the markup format sane (i.e. plain-text) and > consistent (i.e. semi-standardized, so as not to complicate joint > project planning) is a top priority for the entire Org-mode community. Re: plain text and standardization, see the above two paragraphs. > As for my personal priorities: I didn't start using Emacs solely because > Org-mode *requires* me to, but because I care about getting my work done, > as efficiently as possible. Mac/Windows-influenced non-features (and > the code overhead they introduce) will undoubtedly interfere with that. > > IOW, a lack of certain "features" is an essential feature in and of itsel= f. Have you looked at Emacs recently? =E2=80=9CMinimalistic=E2=80=9D is the op= posite of what it is. The fact that you use it ought to show in itself that minimalism isn=E2=80=99t what you want. > I guess what I'm trying to achieve is to keep Org-mode from slowly and > inconspicuously devolving into something featuring transparent blinking > 3D unicorn overlays with cherries on top. That's a gross exaggeration of > course (one would hope), but I'm sure you catch my drift. Certainly. I still don=E2=80=99t understand how this justifies all the fus= s over a request to change the headline starter. Aankhen