From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id KH0qNWC6pmEi1AAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 00:57:20 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id 4JPYMGC6pmHOXQAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:57:20 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65632159B1 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 00:57:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52326 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msCzv-0007OO-Jt for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 18:57:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47110) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msCyy-0007KC-2d for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 18:56:20 -0500 Received: from [2a00:1450:4864:20::234] (port=44810 helo=mail-lj1-x234.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msCyw-0007C9-6I for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 18:56:19 -0500 Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id 13so44319218ljj.11 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:56:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Krht9fvBfYT9sTatfjhbTlKSKCB5FPL7JOKXuUPcoPY=; b=Bi+jzAr6I+vP9CaiH41H+Ok1Sd2oSvFByXdcODR+RfH5e9ZnwYH9bCwzxpPctQ2TjD ZIAdm0Q0EnaTp4MIQyJm7aVSQ2NdPCS2GWOtGvR7is+D7tKk/H4GEQTBGbuAwE1VUiWm JTvEMoF3GZfEcFaeGpn/EUw3+wKhGenDUHQCok+03xbd2tPg/L+jby/u6VUlZhYA/FBY IJTNz6cAMQkvULhZ1FsI+WSmJnSwHENGUykdUm4Lb8khwO82CcjIu+jJuU3RXvx1xDhD aB/R2I+N5mSkiD1L1NOFeFgMZDRF4M4Tqjx8VXdl36K9UhJ2aZJhI19h1NPegx9I+lpb uZag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Krht9fvBfYT9sTatfjhbTlKSKCB5FPL7JOKXuUPcoPY=; b=C4iylFgR7N2ffgaAba/q7Sd6GLPQYZqxmYoqjpT/GXC3hfnx8y7klMOjh1BeT9psB7 ntUf35CRMe6OGx1bo8bySVag2p82Ixg5iS6KCx0G/ar03Jf3ITTEpNXaeZ0cy91eTmyp hV9rmEYjmJmAAK4o8nxVF13G1Ou50sRVlyceFyz73tfC/eWFKPl04fizHyT/0eifD7D/ i7j86p2IkVIz4SPhPMxPhs7mEMpr0fArgQcWjtU8u+KzpY9EwW3PWVPmUUrSGmKQJm8D L5h9kIFW1ApPdRZ/jtfX2xT5pI1FTQKcYGavB9G7aAVuQXO41VUd9fM1+nDF1WnSMp3f 0G/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XRPEDt+yQP+L/oRbvj4cL3jZBbAbDGihyWfOgATv5wJwYWNwI 74aYsv5DuvSDpn4Rve+V6LUxdZsNeA0BndInXWw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDDGz4oIDtJFcwHBjQ6nQPq0cLSQeUF+7C/WDpFotIzBSvzpOYss2SBd2ka+QBzfOoFgjkQ2ez/2WfqmcWwDs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9a02:: with SMTP id o2mr2011657lji.221.1638316576357; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:56:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ab3:1912:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:56:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> From: Samuel Wales Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 16:56:15 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode To: Karl Voit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::234 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::234; envelope-from=samologist@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x234.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638316640; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Krht9fvBfYT9sTatfjhbTlKSKCB5FPL7JOKXuUPcoPY=; b=lQNMxwlygm+5pJ8ovOwlZyzhy5qKaCQU4mQtIhss6RNtTrjPJJQnHhUdRxrHnirQawM4PB x6iZcxkNDPgsxytHdTTQfFHcIEcp6+XqS8WmT70kLjzsbQKqPm7RX0U54OVhlXCkrvtirz otbopK6veOq/603+BMGKJnOf5Fh7E6fIxCx00rN07EaVd5uWT5g0Lyfm6vXaBv86l6+4Q8 +ukPhlvZMk33sKYRUREAQg06Xg7BLK89BDk6F0FCLvfkuW50gPhEIP0dArZ46yD9hnQtoQ RyfTUzfg667eaCOmCv+4LNQ0dBXXMGlSLyIXy5rdW2MEGkAReWXrWX6uvcZJag== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638316640; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=mP7UTPynUOJRMSyxDVLgqxwLoZLHhIiXFZNrrI4vT6K2Sp4CGmJkBhkEW9jQppB8V595MS Kik4YAOoiBWtJaYaSE0avHJsrkKMKLRLe8DQ92A3FcmmUKBWZss8Yrf2yyh67hL7rNcRpv dy4Xo/KHbVd1TndIZR0z78029djOY6C8axwAfVReC5o1LZjNm78IMC09uhAYjz8Tc9cM3c QKlw6eFYpPAAiRhxNEYhJKhgxCdH6H76m3mPGB+jkYtWrpaAUl+cb2y39jgz6JCeeCG1nG qKjokPY1SRxnO+FyYkmuvBc7ARO5wKi8fWky/mCeNumIllfq17uoRi2kCp0qGQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=Bi+jzAr6; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.11 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=Bi+jzAr6; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 65632159B1 X-Spam-Score: -4.11 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: NlSaSZ9S2ulF um, or just "assuming too much bias"? :] again i don't think you are really doing these things by just proposing a bunch of ideas about markup languages. not everybody knows all languages and you'll get substantive corrective feedback. On 11/30/21, Samuel Wales wrote: > if you will forgive one more bikeshed answer, what about this? > > - reduced org > - reduced org, version 1 > > and maybe > > - .rorg extension [if and only if needed to guarantee reduction] > > as for why you got bikeshed answers, maybe the subject header of this > thread might have been part of it? > > idk. > > =3D=3D=3D > > as for [other thread], i don't think you are doing this because > reduced org is an interesting idea but: > >> "Does "assuming too much on other people's world because on my own small >> world" have a scientific name?" > > "epistemic tresspassing" has been used for something a bit similar. > also i would use the term "drive-by paper" for e.g. making claims > about a disease that the authors do not understand at all but think > they do, wanting to try their ideology, measurement tool, or intuition > regardless so they can get a paper out of it, but that does not apply > here. more generally are things like fiefdom/chauvanism, ideological > bias, and professional bias, which are different. maybe there should > be a "small world bias" or an "if you have a hammer everything looks > like a nail bias"? and a "common belief bias" and "cultural belief > bias"? and a "my favorite language bias"? you might also consider > the availability heuristic, saliency bias, epistemic injustice, and > omission bias, but those are different too. > > i think it is a good idea to be interested in the possibility of > reduced org as a generic markup language. > > On 11/28/21, Karl Voit wrote: >> Hi Org-mode community, >> >> At this year's EmascsConf, I had a 12 minute video where I explain why >> we do need a different name for the syntax of Org-mode in contrast to >> the Elisp implementation of GNU/Emacs Org-mode. >> >> I would like you to read my rationale and motivate you to use the term >> "Orgdown" for the syntax and "Orgdown1" for the first (very basic) >> level of Orgdown syntax elements. >> >> - The EmacsConf21 talk: https://emacsconf.org/2021/talks/org-outside >> - Orgdown site: https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown (please >> contribute!) >> - My motivation article: https://karl-voit.at/2021/11/27/orgdown/ >> - This is the longer version of my 12 minute EmacsConf21 video. >> - My personal copy of the video: >> https://tube.graz.social/w/bgJVfjPLQAoJwLJQZoo3Hu >> >> >> Just as a sneak preview (not as a replacement for my motivation article)= : >> >> Orgdown is and will be defined in a set of levels, starting with very >> basic Orgdown1 (or OD1 or O=E2=86=931 or =E2=A7=AC1 - depending on your = coolness >> factor of choice :-) ) >> >> - OD1 =E2=86=92 >> https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown/-/blob/master/doc/Orgdown-Levels.o= rg >> - OD2 =E2=86=92 will be defined in future >> - OD3 =E2=86=92 will be defined in future >> - ... >> - OD=E2=88=9E =3D Org-mode (by definition) >> >> Any OD-level needs to be compatible with Org-mode as implemented in >> Elisp for GNU/Emacs Org-mode according to https://orgmode.org. Any ODx >> is a sub-set of the syntax elements of ODy (with y>x). >> >> With introducing a new term specific for the syntax, we do get the >> benefit of getting a better way to handle Org-mode support in >> 3rd-party tools such as listed on >> https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown/-/blob/master/doc/Tool-Support.org >> (please extend!). >> >> Having a well-defined sub-set of Org-mode, I also do think that formal >> definitions of the Org-mode syntax will be easier to develop, starting >> with the very simple OD1 level. >> >> It would be awesome if we start referring to syntax support in >> 3rd-party tools with the corresponding OD levels. >> >> I want to emphasize that the goal of Orgdown is NOT and will never be >> something that is an alternative to our golden standard Org-mode. We >> will try hard not to get into the Markdown situation where you need to >> know the exact flavor of the markup in order to produce text. >> >> So far, the response was great at the conference and I do hope that >> this idea will get a life of its own, developing the standard further, >> bringing this magnificent lightweight markup to the digital world. >> This also eases some pain for users of GNU/Emacs when it comes to >> exchanging text-based data. >> >> Thanks for your support here! >> >> >> -- >> Personal Information Management > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/pim/ >> Emacs-related > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/emacs/ >> >> >> > > > -- > The Kafka Pandemic > > Please learn what misopathy is. > https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wrong= ed.html > --=20 The Kafka Pandemic Please learn what misopathy is. https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged= .html