From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4FPRLKKGOGLgKQEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:07:30 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id cE2QJaKGOGLOcAAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:07:30 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC4453E736 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:07:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:54648 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nWIgy-00041P-K4 for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:07:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47226) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nWIfu-000418-Fb for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:06:23 -0400 Received: from [2a00:1450:4864:20::635] (port=46017 helo=mail-ej1-x635.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nWIfs-0001EE-0h for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:06:22 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id qa43so29974329ejc.12 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 07:06:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=andrew.cmu.edu; s=google-2021; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=N816/VuLF24dcFl4gkqloSQ6rNRH1S5cQznmXZxmuCw=; b=FlLY22muyUd1xcPsoVkRWe0tB5c/E7honrxNihZ369rRDlHeS124asXtc63CaJqKTh 1gQ+Yy1d/TpiVCy95/uHmJT+9X7RTxdrHrIppHDNXJo0b3W6MR33drsIFzbpJu6qwpRe VIHylXHUhTVmmNUgwmLc/bMxuvt0Ls/+92nJgDxY703Bih8GlOD5uvdg94E9T5C5+1qq 0xTpIXNCTQGK8wtuKzKIzH6evhL9RpnaOr4YI6Ht+r4FqWV+KJUw2vjhDyrC5bzP5p34 h1jNDVMY1gKu4ichKGcfkgJf8GXsplI88dZOODsy95Ehkz9sLWgdYvaC6P7fr8OkQVw9 CJFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=N816/VuLF24dcFl4gkqloSQ6rNRH1S5cQznmXZxmuCw=; b=hatp5XgAgG60tR950bW4xSQVNKvF9qGine01YZJTmau4urOviV6xUvWHFphjX7rT8L bxNUspiJJv5Bhwv4QFjGxJPtTGRe6dj8KRMWpGYPS9FmfahxE0HlbnTm2K3a4TpxWjKr Nfr3lmHBkEwQGWkgdWkhlSsnS12DvyhhmdMfUZlFQc7qOfgfCb5hWX3xSkp+Ki9W3doj oPgBTXVExwp5/iUReeOt6jp9DwJiCMOpNsfjZ4kh57pJijAa7+M8BhbmeRAAtV13koCw oogx8qjVAEUZ927GkhzUmBKMaEdoByX881QDvN0ms9BqYcgDZQ4NOZ09tlrr9wiUkEXe yB8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532PWuuuNTwSh6SPX5mtt/nrCr7klR6sW2PBhVnipOFsfGq4ZoyN hlZMWL45i6M3SPs+uRo++AzfCE76jXF1fG1sT2w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwQjVWMcojB+NVziZMVr8mB4P26Joux3Ow9DL+1XB+hFPqJDosvjOF+Fr/jfLX4I5SPAnhL0oGMeQ6fUIBcAPM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:2b93:b0:6cf:bb48:5a80 with SMTP id m19-20020a1709062b9300b006cfbb485a80mr20465472ejg.681.1647871578176; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 07:06:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87wngosqvm.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r16wukx0.fsf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: John Kitchin Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:06:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d806105dabb002f" X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::635 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::635; envelope-from=johnrkitchin@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x635.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.659, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: org-mode-email Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1647871650; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=N816/VuLF24dcFl4gkqloSQ6rNRH1S5cQznmXZxmuCw=; b=GYWafzNrlLgD43IRjbrvmePLOkPICg/Cm0K+PxCfyw5HmyNxWqMRJaUnP+Yb3Gx8g7i3xP ic8zOp9hec2eyeid1Uk8LBaNLCqVyHZpEqMQ9mogceRVvc6xO4ehgEhBDTlw2j5d5+5JXE wf1FWVA1rct8ymgCzcTEfU5WHTdhSZ5Sv/Kpw86S+LUWzZKwbbAS4nsRLitqxGdfYuryLd XyYtthHVkikshK6CuZdnJfVucKoehm0Snrzf8HUxHm6CxnJdg008A8JAdnVIoiEb4Xua0X P681n/jTYU8yl7nysgjdsPFEokayfb7s1MmCJVcKywFfodV+YbddDTFMANprUQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1647871650; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=c3sJwikq4wpb1NTPkmi6P4K/5EnFM8ovguud+3BHbdR1PwCJWrRyJRSCT+R3+jHkOecNG6 6SCXEIgjS6N6pMDN2snfygOBrWPO9Ly2+OrH4XXzAaAg4PX02Obh/BzwxUhCQebrQsn6dd cJ0r3qGoTwYkJDG9fjUslzi/0IebQZfHmEObkmN6f1k9ep3lMH4Pfrcj5HyGLTeGA85mV9 gYmWRuj+/iwja2PI0bWQFA0D4LcZYLGJO5Rx5fib+fk6QPxTKD56dc+l+ebLYE8YpAbxbE 2oWJO+nVRcX122oO20knkVJqYi+zY0ZnWN5VmZ81/u1jxiUWcNcSVXuTxyqhVw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=andrew.cmu.edu header.s=google-2021 header.b=FlLY22mu; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=andrew.cmu.edu; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.12 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=andrew.cmu.edu header.s=google-2021 header.b=FlLY22mu; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=andrew.cmu.edu; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: BC4453E736 X-Spam-Score: -9.12 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: cz9ZcQkmlGF4 --0000000000000d806105dabb002f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bruce and I looked into this UI approach in https://github.com/jkitchin/org-ref-cite/issues/9. Bruce and I discussed and worked on this for almost two weeks. There are 70 comments in this issue. There are opportunities now to annotate completion targets, which you can see in the link above. The annotations are not selectable though during completion, and this implementation was not too fast as I recall. You probably should also augment the tooltips like this because you have to be able to tell what a citation format is in the future too, not just at insert time, e.g. suppose you are reading work of a collaborator. It was hard to write, and ambiguous in ways, e.g. what is the export backend you want? The annotations should differ for LaTeX (where you want to see the latex command) vs HTML (where you probably want to see the formatted CSL cite)... We did not surmount these challenges at the time. Maybe others will succeed in this another day. John ----------------------------------- Professor John Kitchin (he/him/his) Doherty Hall A207F Department of Chemical Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 412-268-7803 @johnkitchin http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:42 AM Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:23 AM John Kitchin > wrote: > > >> A package could be created, say `org-cite-literal-biblatex' which is > just a copy > >> of `oc-biblatex.el' with a different default `org-cite-biblatex-styles= ' > and > >> `org-cite-biblatex-style-shortcuts' (or just sets those variables in > >> `org-cite-biblatex'). As far as I can tell this would provide exactly > the > >> functionality you say org-cite can=E2=80=99t provide but org-ref does. > > > > > > I wrote this package you suggest in org-ref-cite. In discussions during > that development, it was clear the preference was on the more abstracted, > and uniform syntax across backends cite commands in org-cite, and not thi= s > kind of variant. Of course one can do this. It is not that org-cite can't > provide it, it is that it doesn't at this time. > > Just for some broader context on this particular issue. > > The advantage of the org-cite style/variant design reflected in the > included export processors (natbib, biblatex, csl) is that the same > styles will mostly generate the same final output. > > But that portability will only work with those styles and variants. > > With the new org-cite-biblatex-styles defcustom, however, one can > augment or completely replace all those. But if you care about that > portability, you'd want to be aware of this, and think about it. > > So per Timothy's point, you actually don't even need a new processor > for biblatex if you want to include all the extensive list of biblatex > commands. > > Natbib AFAIK is already fully covered. > > There's another POV on this though: > > If one doesn't like to see the org-cite styles, because of familiarity > with LaTeX commands etc., I would argue that can be addressed in the > style part of an insert processor and/or in an activate processor. > E.g. I would argue this is a UI issue; not fundamentally about the > styles names. > > Bruce > --0000000000000d806105dabb002f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bruce and I looked into this UI approach in=C2=A0https://github.com/j= kitchin/org-ref-cite/issues/9. Bruce and I discussed and worked on this= for almost two weeks. There are 70 comments in this issue.

<= div>There are opportunities now to annotate completion targets, which you c= an see in the link above. The annotations are not selectable though during = completion, and this implementation was not too fast as I recall. You proba= bly should also augment the tooltips like this because you have to be able = to tell what a citation format is in the future too, not just at insert tim= e, e.g. suppose you are reading work of a collaborator. It was hard to writ= e, and ambiguous=C2=A0in ways, e.g. what is the export backend you want? Th= e annotations should differ for LaTeX (where you want to see the latex comm= and) vs HTML (where you probably want to see the formatted CSL cite)...

We did not surmount these challenges at the time. May= be others will succeed in this another day.

John

-------------------= ----------------
Professor John Kitchin (he/him/his)
Doherty Hall A20= 7F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
P= ittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
@johnkitchin
<= a href=3D"http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu" target=3D"_blank">http://kitch= ingroup.cheme.cmu.edu



On= Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:42 AM Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:23 AM John Kitch= in <jkitchi= n@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

>> A package could be created, say `org-cite-literal-biblatex' wh= ich is just a copy
>> of `oc-biblatex.el' with a different default `org-cite-biblate= x-styles' and
>> `org-cite-biblatex-style-shortcuts' (or just sets those variab= les in
>> `org-cite-biblatex'). As far as I can tell this would provide = exactly the
>> functionality you say org-cite can=E2=80=99t provide but org-ref d= oes.
>
>
> I wrote this package you suggest in org-ref-cite. In discussions durin= g that development, it was clear the preference was on the more abstracted,= and uniform syntax across backends cite commands in org-cite, and not this= kind of variant. Of course one can do this. It is not that org-cite can= 9;t provide it, it is that it doesn't at this time.

Just for some broader context on this particular issue.

The advantage of the org-cite style/variant design reflected in the
included export processors (natbib, biblatex, csl) is that the same
styles will mostly generate the same final output.

But that portability will only work with those styles and variants.

With the new org-cite-biblatex-styles defcustom, however, one can
augment or completely replace all those. But if you care about that
portability, you'd want to be aware of this, and think about it.

So per Timothy's point, you actually don't even need a new processo= r
for biblatex if you want to include all the extensive list of biblatex
commands.

Natbib AFAIK is already fully covered.

There's another POV on this though:

If one doesn't like to see the org-cite styles, because of familiarity<= br> with LaTeX commands etc., I would argue that can be addressed in the
style part of an insert processor and/or in an activate processor.
E.g. I would argue this is a UI issue; not fundamentally about the
styles names.

Bruce
--0000000000000d806105dabb002f--