From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id KhPlLNTi5mCoXgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 13:34:44 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id iMfsJ9Ti5mDfWQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 11:34:44 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 807A427441 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 13:34:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59762 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m1SIj-0000sH-5R for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 07:34:41 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48668) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m1SID-0000s7-4I for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 07:34:09 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::332]:50802) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m1SIA-0007iI-HD for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 07:34:08 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id o22so3905335wms.0 for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 04:34:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=U5+dRaCNYWwyHwBh2pnj9zyAQ5gUynRNW2+gKOYV924=; b=TnNktbb/DcmS+4eTBxNsYFUq6PQxcWDncQLvca5XJ57uNEs/J7i1HFhEvNOa2QBGHJ kNQvJfF8cCl0WyW8Wl0SbOoA7yvXEmpmujc6Gf7n5NYVBSiK6S/tTpYLmkttgBOskAh3 f+cmRa27g9ixtn7r/I2+FVPq6G8XsY4VhvJ4d6B/pbXvGpKIWQkByo4B434D0VwOnhoT 4HGl8TagmqCkNTV7Gl3boFqVbUzUdJO7h6N4kDM6Mcf7wxOulsnXZqSpNjGtWYZw/Suu 6QTzTDJEhlUArgChUPGKl3/6Cqi0GHaEbU+QQT+ksUgqh5evV/UtUgrQKHiSdu3sK00O euoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=U5+dRaCNYWwyHwBh2pnj9zyAQ5gUynRNW2+gKOYV924=; b=n4Ll1KQ1yCyilBRpBuYDZlSjBhRox7e7IOQSiUQ8gC84Lv08ONtlEV49ely4sk5x3O 7VyCHcZKQa/R3Yj3j4b9tzc9/uO/syBbtyzT6FZnA/kOQ6uKCMD/J9X4CD2wo5oAzk0l VSHmZl8Il80HHvJIUyFdjb/YRsARZ4S8MxsaWU1OxUYxxwqxoY+I7/K8tWUWGNeHsQXB nij7a1mpj4ThiXRi5X5kVr7fGwQgEtaLhQReakDqdXkkx1GJHK5D6ACine3w5bIh7lFl a/uRs2vObtSZesiDah7Pa8NgChShZBaytQ82PTuee9TnN8MxJrOUhMd3FaRd12A8CWRf HYZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5308gSeFr2oqFRV7AYGqjHa7nwa9V8pRJQg35Jc7CdcJrdTHkPkZ PFExl0PkAeQlT7b0vWrx9r/0oq2TJqFKnLRcbgE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzEM+yswIVbYBQ3N1aqAHznkirjAOMG9whoiFrvKDPiLdDGeo0hfVNGWpQw8QYNo2EiGkE0II2ZI8XZiHaCpEM= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c74a:: with SMTP id w10mr4698578wmk.54.1625744044997; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 04:34:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87lf6hr74u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87im1lzctu.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6mxyusc.fsf@gmail.com> <87zguxnlsl.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: From: John Kitchin Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 07:33:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Merging tomorrow? To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004c418205c69b0896" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::332; envelope-from=johnrkitchin@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x332.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: org-mode-email , Nicolas Goaziou , Timothy Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1625744083; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=U5+dRaCNYWwyHwBh2pnj9zyAQ5gUynRNW2+gKOYV924=; b=eVG8TDmIvPc/wIhoCpKn5YZVMzbJUQAAdQBBF2H4/Pzmb1MUwewZC+1129AkknwWvhJARz MHvnyoQd4J8M5Qs2sqkwCiK6ULvza+EpEk9oljQ/wvxKh6YnVp+GHFrP7GNjDAZasADoyE oOPZOQOeQClDHOSkSpWRn1PtQYxyW+9UGHpJtXHVLW1j0cQF0RiEKXGmuScK+YZR4iOgCX yJ9fmeEkDmkXs2GVyr810dKQrfqUHWikVwr1ZEDIn+7jAaXWRD+Nzvth8ulSMAbNdRP8TM YS5GlisNU4bd3bH+eDb/X1fWeMIesd0UVdguGlT96k/VP6yg9Y4LRuuaXMPFeQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1625744083; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=e6/Pwautr6tJdQfVLB4U0+on25ZkNfv6beTsc8HNnm5NZcxrcf/fFi+Vg25/r6iSfTHjXO 7+64Qybc7mxSNKyfgeIjo2AEYdAIe1A51QinASEyYbQuNzt36+oq/MwWvl4HA3Qi0ro7vy AksqK3e4MYFhw7mf4vMOYGgnd/+JO4/RqXyd2dL1b+UxgjuoZ63iQ4gBpltbAPN3j1l/bd h53xzeiJGr4RdnylB6oP+Rueyx0oowXnngVZemTU8vdlzFX1oeBcx1UcHPnId2cgNZo9yc TdSV34xlrk7sZlXLDzA67ODRT96YJDqtRTDpnSyk4gwysIpLJOFuka/7Cin78g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b="TnNktbb/"; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.31 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b="TnNktbb/"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=andrew.cmu.edu (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 807A427441 X-Spam-Score: -0.31 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: eLtF2yDxBQzK --0000000000004c418205c69b0896 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" My intuition is that crossrefs are separate from the citations. In org-ref, they are separate link types like ref:xxx, pageref:xxx. eqref:xxx, etc. They also use a different source of candidates than cites do. John ----------------------------------- Professor John Kitchin (he/him/his) Doherty Hall A207F Department of Chemical Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 412-268-7803 @johnkitchin http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:16 AM Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 6:26 AM Nicolas Goaziou > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Timothy writes: > > > > > Bruce D'Arcus writes: > > > > > >>> wip-cite-new deals with citing from bibliographies, but I don't > think it > > >>> deals with within-document referencing --- should it? > > > > > >> 1. Should it? > > >> 1. Maybe. > > > > > > I feel like it would fit. With everything that's been done for > > > citations, this feels like it may be a rather minor addition (or at > > > least this is what I hope). > > > > > >> 2. Can it? Could the design be extended to include internal > referencing? > > >> 2. I think so. You'd just need a way to include internal targets in > > >> addition to the citation-references (keys); for illustration, > > >> something like [cite:#some-if]. > > > > > > I can't claim to have thought about this that much either, but > something > > > like [cite:#some-fig] would seem to fit. > > > > > >> 3. If yes to both, should that hold back merger now? > > >> 3. No. > > > > > > I don't think this should hold up the merge either, but it's relevant > in > > > the overall nature of the feature and perhaps could be shoehorned in > > > following the merge? I feel like this is one small quite simple case > and > > > most of the thinking required has already been done. I'm not sure > > > though, I'd go with whatever Nic's thought are on this. > > > > At this point, I don't have enough understanding of the problem to have > > an opinion. IIUC, your example does not even mention citations. How > > should it be used, what should be the output in LaTeX, and in UTF-8 > > export? This is not clear to me. > > > > What can I say however is: if this feature implies to change, or extend, > > syntax, then it is /de facto/ a blocker for the merge, and needs to be > > sorted out. > > As I was hinting, I don't know this area well either. > > I think the first question is the "should" one; whether this is > in-scope of this module. > > I wasn't sure, so said "maybe". > > Joost says "no." > > In latex, such internal references are not citations though; they use > a different mechanism. > > Does that not suggest, Timothy, that this might be out-of-scope for > this module; that Joost is right? > > Bruce > > --0000000000004c418205c69b0896 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My intuition is that crossrefs are separate from the citat= ions. In org-ref, they are separate link types like ref:xxx, pageref:xxx. e= qref:xxx, etc. They also use a different source of candidates than cites do= .

John=

-----------------------------------
Professor John Kitchin (he/h= im/his)
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carn= egie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803


On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:16 AM Bruce D'Arcus &= lt;bdarcus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 8, 202= 1 at 6:26 AM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Timothy <te= cosaur@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >>> wip-cite-new deals with citing from bibliographies, but I= don't think it
> >>> deals with within-document referencing --- should it?
> >
> >> 1. Should it?
> >> 1. Maybe.
> >
> > I feel like it would fit. With everything that's been done fo= r
> > citations, this feels like it may be a rather minor addition (or = at
> > least this is what I hope).
> >
> >> 2. Can it? Could the design be extended to include internal r= eferencing?
> >> 2. I think so. You'd just need a way to include internal = targets in
> >> addition to the citation-references (keys); for illustration,=
> >> something like [cite:#some-if].
> >
> > I can't claim to have thought about this that much either, bu= t something
> > like [cite:#some-fig] would seem to fit.
> >
> >> 3. If yes to both, should that hold back merger now?
> >> 3. No.
> >
> > I don't think this should hold up the merge either, but it= 9;s relevant in
> > the overall nature of the feature and perhaps could be shoehorned= in
> > following the merge? I feel like this is one small quite simple c= ase and
> > most of the thinking required has already been done. I'm not = sure
> > though, I'd go with whatever Nic's thought are on this. >
> At this point, I don't have enough understanding of the problem to= have
> an opinion. IIUC, your example does not even mention citations. How > should it be used, what should be the output in LaTeX, and in UTF-8 > export? This is not clear to me.
>
> What can I say however is: if this feature implies to change, or exten= d,
> syntax, then it is /de facto/ a blocker for the merge, and needs to be=
> sorted out.

As I was hinting, I don't know this area well either.

I think the first question is the "should" one; whether this is in-scope of this module.

I wasn't sure, so said "maybe".

Joost says "no."

In latex, such internal references are not citations though; they use
a different mechanism.

Does that not suggest, Timothy, that this might be out-of-scope for
this module; that Joost is right?

Bruce

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