From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id oAdkNWJYFWFiPQEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 19:20:34 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id yFIiMWJYFWGFfgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 17:20:34 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D758A3D3A for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 19:20:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59950 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mEENb-0001q1-6V for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:20:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57746) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mEEMj-0001pe-JS for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:19:37 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]:52757) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mEEMh-0002tV-Fb for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:19:37 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id f10so1932315wml.2 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:19:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KEqxPvV/3RQbUgLaCr34UJyDJaU097wifcC1hCRbXmc=; b=y0vVSy7sTfK45YiJjrOHXnrz0g7lARxviCnPYYpzX4eEJqNEbknJ1c+hxEU3YKDiSi lOoCzgHeZE6dORyh2AG41KFCkDJIdleSkA6qg2zvc6pYh7A+2jJ+bEMWOzAgKCbt4SDb BkeTSUVwrIE18Lb2yNwdRX2OinV+Q1tcn482Yy0zI8EUkoLV6cerZkXIb4Ks/923KsZf o4U49hh/HA7KwbRF7u6osmxCgdXEMjDAq8IoXOOLEdsYQeZEb6SEk+TUz0YLoc6x0vDv 1bkHcUgntIsLZWTYen2WlDFNt5de+9MTndo57aw72nvmc0escPagCbXSXPOw8dGOxd+H cK8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KEqxPvV/3RQbUgLaCr34UJyDJaU097wifcC1hCRbXmc=; b=dm9LP918fVAbyWzcYIPKir82VLKNPMgY7liqJJk4ErCWOliBdFlGJ8qJK9wYI0sEQz UihEiaiwfIPKhUrUFUV0X2qATs9JmWPepDDhI8CBNnl6iLT0Qg/DEzcBtZiebJPz7FX6 AiIlFRw76k9PSe9U+VAmBWOHOY2aNnFbm4kONcXquK2UeMkFMfZT/ldpEXQ/kWBxraKr EPK63KubiFRThURfIHkZWOf29UUdbAPJDfVV5Yc/VzRLD9z3svne8H6QFyQlerClEcSH mEV13QtndnohCxqN0sfkRkrhHL/+eNgaQ6wm3eaf3iMGEx/l3d7NYgwsndJ8OZoAJi2Z ZI6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KoL3dZ/Kpt9azxXC9ZovzM3JqICXyON1F/t8fCXrBRZVh9LcE OXrpdwCsYHxhlxCT0NP7HlGeC6RnwBzEpkWXS/g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyrD+oStN2GZdbiA6r4HDxLSVEPH+xSpLLkYkE+4VxKTjzRRdenRGI4ppjy7M8Xb4qWa9q4DNUSfMRP2P8+8xw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:154b:: with SMTP id f11mr16594925wmg.116.1628788772851; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:19:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: John Kitchin Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:19:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Expanding how the new cite syntax is used to include cross-references - thoughts? To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000038544c05c95ff0ed" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32f; envelope-from=johnrkitchin@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Tom Gillespie , org-mode-email Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1628788834; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=KEqxPvV/3RQbUgLaCr34UJyDJaU097wifcC1hCRbXmc=; b=syQE3cJ3427/ri5eHEZlTXumfz12WzJ0Ky5L2siEgo+tqO+j/Ri18Zk0TVGKuanwncKU5F e4kIrJ0frQVxTlgsYjpIK4vQIUx1izR8a2ns1QIt/ykq9ueU/xqjGXbX44tf3xNm/Mz4+j YwTFiu+V74p9lCDx1sY001yFEZVXPGH3ETnIac/a72sObIoXyU6AUg/iZuFeIH66Knt8Gb wsas5bKMYpDfBHE8dLFgC+soAUkFSWgZnD5Bj47sv5tbs1yzgPmrrlHp8gfnp8NAwSuwkp bSMmIUYvWotkBsH0pmf5mXn6+SjWmOmDjT/myYTWNa1U9bdwS+9qOzp8VUUSsQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1628788834; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=X8LcqazlcKrAApT6KtX6+YtG40RwdNfU75kqfXYib2CYa3HzN4Jcg+9Pvomma/GIrK5fNf Yer2yrXljCqP7M02I6HV+aoVat0Em6nyjkJnOaCyRiFjMt/UiKe2u8FM4YiIJp2x0gxrdz m2lR3IgWcI+aBUjY30SHpdPFUYO50LgTXHG6MN+G12omwdFk+v9C5XCoyxYBydvuCYXrYj 4ed0LrLrwNxSGaYRCXnbwSnMBdDuow0XCuuQL36ZYn4rsURCK8PtxawjTgIvl7/cBiML1Y H7ly+fmx7rCFX6TUqjr2a6FI7UFsl+bQQT8MGe065GdBF0NUc6FxKyQG09b58A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=y0vVSy7s; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.51 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=y0vVSy7s; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), DKIM not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=andrew.cmu.edu (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: D758A3D3A X-Spam-Score: -1.51 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: ZMLl1zBBgUnU --00000000000038544c05c95ff0ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > As I have thought about this more, the line between citations and > > cross-references has blurred. In org-ref, they were handled the same > > way, with org-links (although each link had its own export function). > > For both cites and refs, the links are just pointers, and in both cases > > it is possible for them to point to things within the same document. > > Even in LaTeX, when we submit a manuscript, the citation references are > > embedded in a standalone tex file, so every link is to an internal > > location. > > Let's step back though: > > What is the ideal UX for org users? > > Per my response to Timothy yesterday, and what I have said elsewhere > about how citations and cross-references are handled elsewhere in the > software universe, I think it's not to remove the distinction, but > rather to clarify it. > > In effect, the choice is between: > > 1. org-cite-insert for both citations and cross-refernces > 2. org-cite-insert for the former, org-ref-insert for the latter > > Even in org-ref, you adopted 2.; there's a separate command and menu > entry for each, and a different UI. > > Do you now think that was a bad decision in retrospect? > I would say the UI that I like, have used for many years, and is the default of org-ref is: 1. You type C-c ] to insert a citation 2. You type C-u C-c ] to insert a cross-reference 3. you type C-u C-u C-c ] to insert a new label. That is, there is a single entry point for inserting things, that is differentiable with a prefix arg. So, you remember one key binding to insert something, with the default being the thing you insert the most of (for me citations), and you just have to remember to prefix it for a reference or label. These are all done with completion, and citations use a different set of candidates than a cross-reference. Labels also use completion to help you insert unique ones. There are lots of ways to implement that UI behind the scenes, and as you noted the org-ref-insert-link function simply calls one of three user-defined functions for a cite, ref or label. An alternative could be a hydra or transient menu, with some keybinding that lets you choose to insert a cite, ref (or a label perhaps). so, I guess I am in agreement that it is option 2, and that there needs to be a single entry point for each one. > > Bruce > --00000000000038544c05c95ff0ed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


> As I have thought about this more, the line between citations and
> cross-references has blurred. In org-ref, they were handled the same > way, with org-links (although each link had its own export function).<= br> > For both cites and refs, the links are just pointers, and in both case= s
> it is possible for them to point to things within the same document. > Even in LaTeX, when we submit a manuscript, the citation references ar= e
> embedded in a standalone tex file, so every link is to an internal
> location.

Let's step back though:

What is the ideal UX for org users?

Per my response to Timothy yesterday, and what I have said elsewhere
about how citations and cross-references are handled elsewhere in the
software universe, I think it's not to remove the distinction, but
rather to clarify it.

In effect, the choice is between:

1. org-cite-insert for both citations and cross-refernces
2. org-cite-insert for the former, org-ref-insert for the latter

Even in org-ref, you adopted 2.; there's a separate command and menu entry for each, and a different UI.

Do you now think that was a bad decision in retrospect?

I would say the UI that I like, have used for many years, = and is the default of org-ref is:

1. You type C-c = ] to insert a citation
2. You type C-u C-c ] to insert a cross-re= ference
3. you type C-u C-u C-c ] to insert a new label.

That is, there is a single entry point for inserting thing= s, that is differentiable with a prefix arg.=C2=A0

So, you remember one key binding to insert something, with the default bei= ng the thing you insert the most of (for me citations), and you just have t= o remember to prefix it for a reference or label. These are all done with c= ompletion, and citations use a different set of candidates than a cross-ref= erence. Labels also use=C2=A0completion to help you insert unique ones.

There are lots of ways to implement that UI behind th= e scenes, and as you noted the org-ref-insert-link function simply calls on= e of three user-defined functions for a cite, ref or label. An alternative = could be a hydra or transient menu, with some keybinding that lets you choo= se to insert a cite, ref (or a label perhaps).

so,= I guess I am in agreement that it is option 2, and that there needs to be = a single entry point for each one.
=C2=A0

Bruce
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