Some orgtbl doc issues

Some orgtbl doc issues

[Rustom Mody]

Ive recently been poking around in orgtbl mode and encountered some
issues.  Not sure how much is my own lack of understanding and how
much there are some little doc issues.

1 Option names dont match
=========================

  - Its orgtbl-radio-table-templates in emacs
  - Its orgtbl-radio-tables in doc Appendix A.6.2


2 Receiving string
==================

  - Seems to be "RECEIVE ORGTBL"
  - String seems to be hardwired. Which may be ok if its by design.
  - Not clear what is the relation of this string and
    orgtbl-radio-templates
  - I find 1 space is fixed between RECEIVE and ORGTBL. Multiple
allowed between ORGTBL and table-name
  - Its not clear from the doc whether its "RECEIVE ORGTBL" or
  "/* RECEIVE ORGTBL"
  - Subtle interaction between # in org and host mode comment char -- #
    in python, shell etc -- could do with some elaboration


3 hook system
=============

  - What are the hooks for orgtbl?
  - How do the org hooks relate to the orgtbl hooks?
  - Note: orgtbl is for those who are not otherwise using orgmode


4 Long header line
==================

  I could not figure out how to split a long
  :#+ORGTBL: SEND...  line

Regards
Rusi

Re: Some orgtbl doc issues

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Rustom, 

thanks for this.

On 16.8.2013, at 16:30, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ive recently been poking around in orgtbl mode and encountered some
> issues.  Not sure how much is my own lack of understanding and how
> much there are some little doc issues.
> 
> 1 Option names dont match
> =========================
> 
>  - Its orgtbl-radio-table-templates in emacs
>  - Its orgtbl-radio-tables in doc Appendix A.6.2

Fixed, thanks.

> 
> 
> 2 Receiving string
> ==================
> 
>  - Seems to be "RECEIVE ORGTBL"

It is BEGIN RECEIVE ORGTBL followed by a table name.  As the example in the manual shows.  Does this have to be more explicit?

>  - String seems to be hardwired. Which may be ok if its by design.

Yes, hardwired by design.

>  - Not clear what is the relation of this string and
>    orgtbl-radio-templates

The templates insert a BEGIN RECEIVE/END RECEIVE table template with
*proper commenting* around it in different programming modes.
I improved this in the docs.

>  - I find 1 space is fixed between RECEIVE and ORGTBL. Multiple
> allowed between ORGTBL and table-name

OK, I have removed this restriction.

>  - Its not clear from the doc whether its "RECEIVE ORGTBL" or
>  "/* RECEIVE ORGTBL"

That depends on the programming mode.  The documentation says that the lines must be comments in the current mode, I would think that this is clear enough.

>  - Subtle interaction between # in org and host mode comment char -- #
>    in python, shell etc -- could do with some elaboration

Can you propose something for the documentation?

> 
> 
> 3 hook system
> =============
> 
>  - What are the hooks for orgtbl?
>  - How do the org hooks relate to the orgtbl hooks?
>  - Note: orgtbl is for those who are not otherwise using orgmode

What to you mean?  Mode hooks, or hooks for specific functionality of the table?  If table commands run hooks, the corresponding trgtbl commands will do so as well, because they simply call the table functions in an environment where the proper keys bindings are not accessible.

orgtbl-mode is a standard minor mode and has `orgtbl-mode-hook', similar to all other minor modes.  See the documentation of define-minor-mode.  Do you feel the manual should say so?  It does not document many other hooks in org either, because there are too many.


> 
> 4 Long header line
> ==================
> 
>  I could not figure out how to split a long
>  :#+ORGTBL: SEND...  line

It cannot be split.

Regards

- Carsten

> 
> Regards
> Rusi
> 

Re: Some orgtbl doc issues

[Rustom Mody]

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Running just now... will answer in detail later
Just want to say for now that this was prompted by a discussion on python
list in which a half-dozen people expressed a wish for something like this.
Nobody seemed to know/mention org and since I could not work out all the
details, Ive not so far answered


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hi Rustom,
>
> thanks for this.
>
> On 16.8.2013, at 16:30, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ive recently been poking around in orgtbl mode and encountered some
> > issues.  Not sure how much is my own lack of understanding and how
> > much there are some little doc issues.
> >
> > 1 Option names dont match
> > =========================
> >
> >  - Its orgtbl-radio-table-templates in emacs
> >  - Its orgtbl-radio-tables in doc Appendix A.6.2
>
> Fixed, thanks.
>
> >
> >
> > 2 Receiving string
> > ==================
> >
> >  - Seems to be "RECEIVE ORGTBL"
>
> It is BEGIN RECEIVE ORGTBL followed by a table name.  As the example in
> the manual shows.  Does this have to be more explicit?
>
> >  - String seems to be hardwired. Which may be ok if its by design.
>
> Yes, hardwired by design.
>
> >  - Not clear what is the relation of this string and
> >    orgtbl-radio-templates
>
> The templates insert a BEGIN RECEIVE/END RECEIVE table template with
> *proper commenting* around it in different programming modes.
> I improved this in the docs.
>
> >  - I find 1 space is fixed between RECEIVE and ORGTBL. Multiple
> > allowed between ORGTBL and table-name
>
> OK, I have removed this restriction.
>
> >  - Its not clear from the doc whether its "RECEIVE ORGTBL" or
> >  "/* RECEIVE ORGTBL"
>
> That depends on the programming mode.  The documentation says that the
> lines must be comments in the current mode, I would think that this is
> clear enough.
>
> >  - Subtle interaction between # in org and host mode comment char -- #
> >    in python, shell etc -- could do with some elaboration
>
> Can you propose something for the documentation?
>
> >
> >
> > 3 hook system
> > =============
> >
> >  - What are the hooks for orgtbl?
> >  - How do the org hooks relate to the orgtbl hooks?
> >  - Note: orgtbl is for those who are not otherwise using orgmode
>
> What to you mean?  Mode hooks, or hooks for specific functionality of the
> table?  If table commands run hooks, the corresponding trgtbl commands will
> do so as well, because they simply call the table functions in an
> environment where the proper keys bindings are not accessible.
>
> orgtbl-mode is a standard minor mode and has `orgtbl-mode-hook', similar
> to all other minor modes.  See the documentation of define-minor-mode.  Do
> you feel the manual should say so?  It does not document many other hooks
> in org either, because there are too many.
>
>
> >
> > 4 Long header line
> > ==================
> >
> >  I could not figure out how to split a long
> >  :#+ORGTBL: SEND...  line
>
> It cannot be split.
>
> Regards
>
> - Carsten
>
> >
> > Regards
> > Rusi
> >
>
>


-- 
http://www.the-magus.in
http://blog.languager.org

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Re: Some orgtbl doc issues

[Rustom Mody]

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Well clearly the radio tables section reads better now. Further comments
inline.
Before that some general comments.

The Python list thread starting here
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-July/653164.html

As you will see some python programmers (including emacsers!) seem to have
a need for something like this and dont seem to know about org. And by
extension one may assume other languages than python also. In short this
seems to be a general need.

So what is written below should be taken less from my own pov -- I am
hardly an org power-user but still a user -- than from the pov of a general
emacser -- a programmer who uses emacs and knows next to nothing about org


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hi Rustom,
>
> thanks for this.
>
> On 16.8.2013, at 16:30, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ive recently been poking around in orgtbl mode and encountered some
> > issues.  Not sure how much is my own lack of understanding and how
> > much there are some little doc issues.
> >
> > 1 Option names dont match
> > =========================
> >
> >  - Its orgtbl-radio-table-templates in emacs
> >  - Its orgtbl-radio-tables in doc Appendix A.6.2
>
> Fixed, thanks.
>
> >
> >
> > 2 Receiving string
> > ==================
> >
> >  - Seems to be "RECEIVE ORGTBL"
>
> It is BEGIN RECEIVE ORGTBL followed by a table name.  As the example in
> the manual shows.  Does this have to be more explicit?
>
> >  - String seems to be hardwired. Which may be ok if its by design.
>
> Yes, hardwired by design.
>

Not a problem in itself.

It becomes a problem in connection with the dfault value of
org-radio-table-templates which contains many instances of

BEGIN RECEIVE ORGTBL %n

and thereby suggests that that is changeable


> >  - Not clear what is the relation of this string and
> >    orgtbl-radio-templates
>
> The templates insert a BEGIN RECEIVE/END RECEIVE table template with
> *proper commenting* around it in different programming modes.
> I improved this in the docs.
>
> >  - I find 1 space is fixed between RECEIVE and ORGTBL. Multiple
> > allowed between ORGTBL and table-name
>
> OK, I have removed this restriction.
>
> >  - Its not clear from the doc whether its "RECEIVE ORGTBL" or
> >  "/* RECEIVE ORGTBL"
>
> That depends on the programming mode.  The documentation says that the
> lines must be comments in the current mode, I would think that this is
> clear enough.
>

Some languages (eg Python) have no multiline comment but have a multiline
string which is also ok to use


>
> >  - Subtle interaction between # in org and host mode comment char -- #
> >    in python, shell etc -- could do with some elaboration
>
> Can you propose something for the documentation?
>
> >
> >
> > 3 hook system
> > =============
> >
> >  - What are the hooks for orgtbl?
> >  - How do the org hooks relate to the orgtbl hooks?
> >  - Note: orgtbl is for those who are not otherwise using orgmode
>
> What to you mean?  Mode hooks, or hooks for specific functionality of the
> table?  If table commands run hooks, the corresponding orgtbl commands will
> do so as well, because they simply call the table functions in an
> environment where the proper keys bindings are not accessible.
>

As I said at start of this mail, we are looking at orgtbl for otherwise
non-org users.
For that audience I was exploring whether vanilla org would work OTB
ie without any of my org-settings
also not the latest but one bundled with emacs

Since at that point I really could not understand
orgtbl-radio-table-templates and thought it had to be set I asked. As it
appears now, it works without any customization so the point is moot.
Nevertheless the general question is: If a non-org user of orgtbl needs to
set up minor-mode specific customization where is it to be done?


> orgtbl-mode is a standard minor mode and has `orgtbl-mode-hook', similar
> to all other minor modes.  See the documentation of define-minor-mode.  Do
> you feel the manual should say so?  It does not document many other hooks
> in org either, because there are too many.
>
>
> >
> > 4 Long header line
> > ==================
> >
> >  I could not figure out how to split a long
> >  :#+ORGTBL: SEND...  line
>
> It cannot be split.
>

There are programming related organizations for which something like
80-char lines is really not negotiable!
So I hope this can be considered as a feature request of course a very
minor one

Regards
>
> - Carsten
>


Speaking generally, maybe someone should respond to that python list thread.
It can be me however someone more org-knowledgeable may be more appropriate
:-)

Thanks and regards
Rusi

-- 

http://blog.languager.org

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Re: Some orgtbl doc issues

[Rustom Mody]

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Ive posted this on the python list
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-September/655021.html

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