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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1621953152; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=e2w2d6B2DbaXYdksK5IQBU3PvC/q0Opw1xCK+iOmNTw=; b=AzOywOThJGLdyeGTe8SlAf1yqMkAOaw5KFnAGrUE5AXdot7UFs/TQ6/Ry/nzHSsH5EunIM 9qMhdmROdDqNHWDjNAhbBiVHphvlZYDBxR9PWoFniSwqhRynR7djP6vFpjUez9nSC7YSPb t/gWp/iTKv8OhqAvSTTh5I5VqIn5NimcX03L7JtvDspJZsvmxeJvft7M3vn8FZyEIE05Ds hxOAkhWeyVaQzpBpFSIoSt3cM2CohWMHgVgJ2iEMcCx2vH4OK5BRKXuVh/hnQRN1qraLc3 JKugXeyhZcOrVxAVhR/mFOKT2W9wYyyiW6eAUju4mwrQG+wyQ3gfak9AiRW3Lg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1621953152; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=mJH4E/rRQEeL4XUmMPkwwQFspMjlPtfbW/WZqCSVQAXvzu4OonqHeEKP5yaJPoaPVVT+4s QemboS02PdD1YXaSPpnJDKd8VqBbn8i5Z9E1b6GWJHEsvb02pQbOKTd9L8qIkUIbp8th5k yyDu6yzRGN44D5wMpFxfLMz/mZMtg/GUNvtCJ0/LH/a26bMPz5eIJ2xRbmgq5ZUyCDfSaT eJVylQp7nW3KK4bIYugaZzFstD1exTP2ENTbLDEc5fSf9N78IP4Ns1scSxV+aow1Gh3K3o AHsurn/IFZKw3ASj6KMhzL8OfXRvxL6GFTJmLXrOlrYfhZ9N/0RV2Epo0KnlfA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=AQ3U2A3O; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.63 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=AQ3U2A3O; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 4892614875 X-Spam-Score: -1.63 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: b9G2GHGP2bYk --0000000000008bb96f05c32860cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 9:25 AM Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 9:13 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > > So maybe we should try to converge first. Then, I'll happily implement > > the result! > > Will do; thanks! Denis Maier and I worked on this off-list. Below is our suggested revised biblatex and natbib mapping table, with the (long) explanation below it, the "extended" table for illustration below that, and the org file with the tables attached, | Style | Variant | NatBib Command | BibLaTeX Command = | |---------------+----------------------+----------------+------------------= | | author (a) | caps-full (cf) | | Citeauthor = | | author (a) | full (f) | citeauthor* | citeauthor = | | author (a) | caps (c) | Citeauthor | Citeauthor* = | | author (a) | | citeauthor | citeauthor* = | |---------------+----------------------+----------------+------------------= | | noauthor (na) | bare | citeyear | = | | noauthor (na) | | citeyearpar | autocite* = | |---------------+----------------------+----------------+------------------= | | locators (l) | bare-caps (bc) | | Notecite = | | locators (l) | bare (b) | | notecite = | | locators (l) | caps (bc) | | Pnotecite = | | locators (l) | | | pnotecite = | |---------------+----------------------+----------------+------------------= | | nocite (n) | | nocite | nocite = | |---------------+----------------------+----------------+------------------= | | text (t) | bare (b) | citealp | = | | text (t) | caps (c) | Citep | Textcite = | | text (t) | full (f) | citep* | = | | text (t) | bare-caps (bc) | Citealp | = | | text (t) | bare-full (bf) | citealp* | = | | text (t) | caps-full (cf) | Citep* | = | | text (t) | bare-caps-full (bcf) | Citealp* | = | | text (t) | | | textcite = | |---------------+----------------------+----------------+------------------= | | (default) | caps (c) | Citep | Autocite = | | (default) | bare (b) | citealp | cite = | | (default) | bare-caps (bc) | Citealp | Cite = | | (default) | full (f) | citep* | = | | (default) | bare-full (bf) | citealp | = | | (default) | caps-full (cf) | Citep* | = | | (default) | bare-caps-full (bcf) | Citealp* | = | | (default) | | citep | autocite = | |---------------+----------------------+----------------+------------------= | The key change is we have split the one table in two, with a =E2=80=9Ccore= =E2=80=9D that should definitely be included, and a separate table =E2=80=9Cextended= =E2=80=9D that could reflect later additions. The =E2=80=9Ccore=E2=80=9D table above provides a sensible superset of what= =E2=80=99s in oc-natbib, and should be a solid starting point. This =E2=80=9Cextended=E2=80=9D table, at the very end, is mostly to accomm= odate cases where biblatex users have a default note style and want to insert parenthetical citations, or vice versa. We do not think this is necessary initially, and some details are unclear about how best to do this. In particular, parencite and footcite are low-level commands, and in the core, we rely on mostly high-level "style-independent" commands. Hence, we have put those examples in the separate table. As you know, biblatex has an insane amount of options, and even more implemented in other packages like chicago, so it=E2=80=99s hard to know wh= at to include, and effectively impossible to be comprehensive with this approach. It might be at some point users will want to be able to configure the mappings, but it does seem premature to worry about that ATM. Beyond the additional mappings, we also suggest two changes: 1. to rename the =E2=80=9Cyear=E2=80=9D style in both oc-natbib and oc-bibl= atex to the broader =E2=80=9Cnoauthor=E2=80=9D, aka =E2=80=9Csuppress author=E2=80=9D. 2. to remove the =E2=80=9Ctitle=E2=80=9D style (below we moved it to the "e= xtended" table) Explanation: Earlier iterations of org-cite had an option to =E2=80=9Csuppress-author=E2= =80=9D on individual citation references using a minus sign. This has since been removed, with the idea this can and should be handled with the style system. In both oc-natbib and oc-biblatex, the =E2=80=9Cyear=E2=80=9D style achiev= es this for author-date styles. But there=E2=80=99s broader value in the feature, and =E2=80=9Cyear=E2=80=9D in that broader context is likely to be confusing, o= r simply wrong (e.g require a different command mapping). You will see, for example, that we map this style to citeyear in natbib, but to the more general =E2=80=9Cstyle-independent=E2=80=9D biblatex command =E2=80=9Cautoc= ite*=E2=80=9D, which produces the same output as citeyear in author-date styles. We have suggested the style name =E2=80=9Cnoauthor=E2=80=9D here instead, s= ince it mirrors =E2=80=9Cnocite=E2=80=9D, and is shorter than =E2=80=9Csupressautho= r=E2=80=9D. It seems possible some natbib users may be confused by this, but we expect it to be a temporary confusion, and on balance this is a better approach, as the styles can be consistent across output formats and styles. On =E2=80=9Ctitle=E2=80=9D, we found the biblatex manual says about these c= ommands: "They are intended for use in the flow of text. Note that all text commands are excluded from citation tracking." We understand this to say "they are not real citation commands." Another question we pondered was whether all those cite/text (and probably default) natbib variants make sense in practice. We have left them in, on the basis we won't really know until people start using this. But it's worth noting that a lot of those variants don't appear to have (certainly not in this table) equivalent biblatex commands. So users will have to be aware of that, and how the fall back system works (for example, text/bare-caps-full will in practice just fall back to text for biblatex). I think that covers everything. If you have any questions on this, please let us know of course. And, of course, if you use natbib or biblatex a lot, now would be a good time to weigh in. Bruce PS - finally, here's the "extended" table, for illustration: | Style | Variant | BibLaTeX Command | |--------------+---------------------+------------------| | locators (l) | parens (p) | pnotecite | | locators (l) | caps-parens (cp) | Pnotecite | | locators (l) | foot (fn) | fnotecite | |--------------+---------------------+------------------| | note (no) | | footcite | |--------------+---------------------+------------------| | title (ti) | full (f) | citetitle* | | title (ti) | | citetitle | |--------------+---------------------+------------------| | smart (sm) | caps (c) | Smartcite | | smart (sm) | | smartcite | |--------------+---------------------+------------------| | super (su) | | supercite | |--------------+---------------------+------------------| | foot (ft) | | footcite | |--------------+---------------------+------------------| | parens (p) | caps-noauthor (cna) | Parencite* | | parens (p) | noauthor (na) | parencite* | | parens (p) | caps (c) | Parencite | | 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