From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id PMlJFlqppF7PAQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:19:22 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 2NF+O2GppF42TgAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:19:29 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85DF4942BB6 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:19:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47806 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSSCt-0003uc-OT for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:19:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52162) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSSC7-0003ts-Uy for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:18:50 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSSC6-0008W3-Ti for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:18:39 -0400 Received: from mail-ua1-x92c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::92c]:42888) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSSC6-0008Vu-Fp for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:18:38 -0400 Received: by mail-ua1-x92c.google.com with SMTP id 36so9194056uaf.9 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 14:18:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=X0riFz+ywUFKfQXbO3OhtQsbFHcpNzge8oMekNNXjlM=; b=ncjkW/vZkTad2jk2qNQ0oqndIaQ1k/Qo2CO5Om7m46zIcZgNThE4hdhjUdD5wYOgqd EKbwglGLDHL2oyyipgxL/wSTV2MDsQKByTxvxZT8mw4kW/zQdRiNdvXFzV716E+jJTbV D1FPsV+k6bXWWGWPMOTUhuGwvXtoyk06nKr1LKNpmg9TLB82vbYBPN3VYXwIKYyAqdJ/ kIq6fRpf0vZ+gG7EktBhA1ylLsrq5xEKqVCE1zA1s1aTeXAyk6BdnsVofNWbyiHxlErM k4yJ05pcL0CW1E6GHZ+qtn2mjt3mhmVjInOTYneoFR8J+KtvBKTXxr4JkiftYympxpge BOyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X0riFz+ywUFKfQXbO3OhtQsbFHcpNzge8oMekNNXjlM=; b=DWfhHP4lWMTFDugvuXxSWbJRotx0Bh/wlRyVGGEb5eY8De28peNoZ4NwbipLs1ImAB R5mgaXUj7cM6Uht/5oMT15zjwnIjR/lZMwbxpjJcmvvowYzodX/wSvj6pfRoEdz0wnrj nshhb6k1EK6T7/PixDcBgMes1qftcRSQGZx7IHpOxb15Sq3n3zBnl7IDCWrcpfDpP2uj QdrVufk0yvrbwvaFy0dCcHjK1g5bP49OKiHhsjj5em5Fp5zXqXx2/gM4s6t2+UzQYl1n ihYnnL9yTLack4TxQ6SASAeLo8i2eoXkI1b9/1A7bGpbYlMbhpg+PwE3R0ohIDOWbIRE 84Ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaHraXXOZqS27zlm4wsIn8fnA3miY4i794fQOeS279tGkaX7udU fXmeTXg/yMAODKQcnwQ1cZ/6r1rJcR7M8xALRsY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJkeyy4Au5mlOnra34jXWeidWEix8C2hsOVPz8MmVyRgiErLMrqJZ6tLRIOaWftZt4k671fyQY7JsPTGb4rmEc= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:63cd:: with SMTP id i13mr11432188uap.82.1587849517241; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 14:18:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <777184861.71192.1586510991834@office.mailbox.org> <87imi72bn0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1016821769.78551.1586641375789@office.mailbox.org> <87h7xp0z1y.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874kto245n.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87sgh8zpmg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1084456979.81820.1586724551265@office.mailbox.org> <877dykz6ri.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r1wrwvam.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87wo6hfg4k.fsf@aquinas> <87v9lx6ju6.fsf@aquinas> <87r1wj7scc.fsf@aquinas> <87lfmjzgeq.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87h7x7z62q.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: <87h7x7z62q.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:18:00 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback To: "Bruce D'Arcus" , Richard Lawrence , org-mode-email , John Kitchin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::92c; envelope-from=bdarcus@gmail.com; helo=mail-ua1-x92c.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::92c X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 X-Spam-Score: -1.71 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ncjkW/vZ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Scan-Result: default: False [-1.71 / 13.00]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(0.00)[-0.55953482899197]; DWL_DNSWL_FAIL(0.00)[gmail.com:server fail,209.51.188.17:server fail]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.51.188.0/24:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; IP_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[asn: 22989(0.20), country: US(-0.00), ip: 209.51.188.17(-0.56)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.50)[cached: eggs.gnu.org]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,uni-tuebingen.de,gnu.org,andrew.cmu.edu]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22989, ipnet:209.51.188.0/24, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[larch=yhetil.org]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bdarcus@gmail.com,emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; URIBL_BLOCKED(0.00)[nicolasgoaziou.fr:email]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[emacs-orgmode@gnu.org]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; DNSWL_BLOCKED(0.00)[209.51.188.17:from]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[] X-TUID: DC913OEJTmKj On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 4:03 PM Nicolas Goaziou wr= ote: ... > > My understanding, though, is that org "cite" would default to your > > last example I quote above (in natibib, citep); that there's no need > > for a dedicated "cite/paren" command, either reserved or not. > > Not necessarily. "cite" means default value, whatever that is. It could, > for example, mean: "cite/text" for every citation, if that is what you > use the most. In that case, "cite/paren" is necessary, to override it > locally. It could also be, e.g., "cite/footnote", then both "cite/text" > and "cite/paren" could be of some use. That was suggested by Richard > Lawrence in this thread, if my memory serves me right. > > Does that make sense? I think so. I'll defer to Richard on this, since he was making this point. ... > > Given how common that is (In natbib, it and citep are the two core > > commands), is there any downside to reserving that? > > As I wrote, we can reserve "cite/text" already. > > Could we find something shorter for such a common need? Well, I didn't > find any syntax compelling enough=E2=80=94I don't like special casing. Fo= r > example, having both "citeX" and "cite/XXX", as suggested by Denis > Maier, is a bit convoluted, IMO. E.g., having both "citet" and > "cite/text" would just add confusion to the system, IMO. > > Besides, "cite/text" is not that difficult to type. Moreover, you would > probably use a tool to insert the citation anyway. > > This is not an irrevocable decision, of course. I merely suggested and > implemented one syntax, but I'm still open to suggestions. I support this decision, for all the reasons you mention; no problem at all= . > > And then I guess the "suppress-author" variant would be something like > > "cite/year" or "cite/suppress-author"? > > The syntax still includes the "suppress-author" mechanism: > [cite:-@doe20]. Oh right; good. > It could be redundant with "cite/suppress-author", indeed. We can keep > it nonetheless. We can also decide to remove the "-@key" special syntax. > Or, we could also consider this idea to be an interesting one, and > extend it, with, e.g., [cite:!@doe20], which could be a shortcut for > [cite/text:@doe20]. > > Special cases=E2=80=A6 Everything's possible. You tell me. I vote to keep the "-". On your last suggestion (the "!" citet shortcut), how valuable it would be = would really depend on the UX; how commonly, per your point above, one would be u= sing a tool to insert this citation command. Bruce