From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id MAgmFfLnk2CLRwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 06 May 2021 14:58:26 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id AOvbEPLnk2DYLgAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 06 May 2021 12:58:26 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3849E1D51B for ; Thu, 6 May 2021 14:58:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:39440 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ledaB-0003ii-Hl for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 08:58:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44558) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ledYl-0003ia-N2 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 08:56:55 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]:44893) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ledYi-0006hW-Qa for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 08:56:55 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id l13so5493916wru.11 for ; Thu, 06 May 2021 05:56:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=KGRx5tFoTOazHHzLkcZln9yy9YOKgeUQWWMLgPM3Lv0=; b=vctcjw1jL5JOMz+SpKgmUqd1NJyCFibx6XxhJIiwbCZ2OUYAHtfmab+gCC9TGVcO47 998JCuN/w4n8FOoPzHQ4DUk/Vv5tBcYHKZCTO+GBjkp25JkqrkSDfr3NczatFy+eExDu QU/fwJzpSOH7G3pOSjCZzOFwqTGx1WzMjyP9kfkSZy7RdjUgeQedpPuFlhS5LcNJ5Eko jKK0ye9wyvKePTq7qlLbgucTuNALwiY4rzrjqTV8+mmkUzjeVPwnvkyAidKdSdUucbcU M/NYee8K4+IKThlID+lO9Mv0aVvWje8wy2LCziLcQj/hulU6xN69iCd4Kfr4Ycxz3Ttz eQ6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=KGRx5tFoTOazHHzLkcZln9yy9YOKgeUQWWMLgPM3Lv0=; b=GaYYqfwwmcAUTozhc7onq6hCQZ84qMlaOVgqHhn4L95r/59zlJY3xqYabHeS7dEjLG uffwUKpblsIDz/h62jiRKVqXTAYXCpN3ePNbSYTGgZdAHW/nyPAWBg34nHo5EUP0BebE hpUC78YUYd3seDwWOavZJe92rs6Xssvec2eBm5vwP7uAVFPPKakkpw4g4ILmSdbS80V9 i0756u5PCYPDiDhFCODN0bvjuj+WKdTkG7m8vi6s1YRsx3kbQPOA0nl+KhwN44VJY/76 j0dOmMyBUGuUVa/ijFOHK7cGKqrpJs1nyEdZvWiHOciq0J+HxR4KzoxRiFTEG+ZyrKEI FXmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533+0+LdIN0BH3GRSaTQpjnXeEiYdFBKICrvkUbO9REWNRGknrtb xiKZj3lmD4d8EzvEiIEVFebQy4BE5Ft2rj/sQi+W5CCfv5bGrg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxXLKZXaiYFgZ+wepgkrIvGV2kDPwLxT0jWaSJ4YoAxjZERNEBzj1IAb7/OpGb8hYNGF0bab522VoQn7cyiH3A= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f152:: with SMTP id y18mr5007962wro.77.1620305810434; Thu, 06 May 2021 05:56:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eeel44gt.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87sg302ggn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: <87sg302ggn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 08:56:41 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] New natbib processor To: Org Mode List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42f; envelope-from=bdarcus@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1620305906; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=KGRx5tFoTOazHHzLkcZln9yy9YOKgeUQWWMLgPM3Lv0=; b=id0l4feCAQI7ssIqkwnaO+trB3+9+osvW2hyLMVOJf7moV9Z1Zws24ZGQF62BmlLZMd0pX 1+JvVHQq/xelrCIn0w+G12u0xGK4wq//OZ3NSNCXpf2GEbtGBQBOReC3qpz3gsbOh50Zo1 GYt7511vg94nNOAIroNo2ZiPw/5JqOLmPjC1ffV88DEcF97bq6j220yVcHa8S6lk2ktmnG WujGh06gPjfjrGcZg06Fy9L64fIoG2nFBa3gg5tKQX6Y/XiCw2UkwOpjp+0bxUylmUQw9k JToHTvJn4d2ChuQME+PuQiRHLSwmnFVcbXSMY4aoT3X4JY+cn6H1BlcPtA96EA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1620305906; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=etWQZiiDzOdmNgESkmGarRAi2XtnL7u0bEBRFqybs7Aew2Rf1+O1HsLQ31lXl/QrI/eUwd Z43SdLM8HpVvQIP+5DUpXbMVYNInJIOTUJQaf+IgEuUYk0ZU5PCfk5ahgylUTkt9wngyD5 F2KIUeq5FfXd/4fb6F9hnN/A9EjVUm4uI0GZ1Ldglf2h/uXe64TMgEEgArlLruUwDJG8mD St8S6mmfl9Bri8Q8yPlnkM2sigvKyH+GOKtq6zgjFO4+7oBNTN4/XXRpBqlktb0Fw7b9Tx jzkfOYhGOuCrOaSqaU4df1Lpz3JZixVK5yxrimJNAxZkGSqrVU68Uw2eWAYAuw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=vctcjw1j; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.66 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=vctcjw1j; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 3849E1D51B X-Spam-Score: -1.66 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: ZRtzzkYkRFRN On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 8:29 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > > Hello, > > "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > > > The question comes down to whether to support sub-styles or not, and > > if yes, what the syntax should be. > > > > I think it makes more sense to include them because otherwise you end > > up with an insanely long list of styles, which won't map well onto > > different kinds of output formats. > > I think only oc-citeproc (and oc-basic) may be targetting multiple > output formats. I doubt it would even use styles; I assume that is > entirely determined by the CSL file. Actually, no; it's determined (mostly) by the processor. A CSL style defines a single default citation layout, which the processor modifies depending on what variants it supports. So most of them support a citet-like option, but it's currently implemented in the processor; not the style. > > E.g. biblatex users will want like 20 commands available, which won't > > all work with other formats. > > So you would have 20 styles, with shortcuts for the most commons. This > is not insane, and the mapping is done only once. In the UI I'm working on for inserting org-cite citations, I have the small handful of styles, that users can complete. https://github.com/bdarcus/bibtex-actions/pull/113 It's simple, and clean; the list of style fits on a single line. Aside: no, I'm not currently planning to include sub-styles here; was thinking to allow users to add them after if needed. But that could change of course. These will work across the different output formats we've discussed, so I don't need to add different config options for different targets, and user documents don't have to change to accommodate them. > Styles do not need to be compatible between processors. As a reminder, > there's the "fallback rule". According to it, each processor must: > - provide a default styles; > - map any unknown style to the style above. OK, but that is only a single required default style then. ... > > Even if not perfect, I think it's a small price to pay for the > > benefits. > > I'm still not convinced by the benefits. Could you describe a situation > where sub-styles would be really beneficial? Say a natbib user has a document, maybe even a book, that makes common use of the text style + some examples of sub-styles. They want to export that document to both HTML and to PDF. Using styles + sub-styles means she can use the same source to get both; the first using the citeproc-org processor, and the second oc-natbib. Admittedly, a long list of flat styles could still accommodate this (I think), but I go back to my UI and config point above. Do note my suggestion on the previous message that we could simplify sub-styles and still get these benefits. I do agree it's not necessary to treat sub-styles as an unordered list. WDYT of that? Bruce