From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id gIXXMWdjpmCOugAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 20 May 2021 15:25:59 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id gMZ8LWdjpmB+agAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 20 May 2021 13:25:59 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 100A01B51E for ; Thu, 20 May 2021 15:25:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:60478 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljigX-0000Qf-PK for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 09:25:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45076) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljidA-0005se-5p for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 09:22:28 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]:33292) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljid7-0001Tb-4V for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 09:22:27 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id n2so17739965wrm.0 for ; Thu, 20 May 2021 06:22:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=89MnaZLA443/w937kqglE1DdBb+BgxX4WZYKV8x7Y3w=; b=OYa7/L/piDWZZmsc6zz2I1LbFB0M3+Vmmv89JycayRqNl2i2dXKeOLF2KWSo6mt7hU A/56qtyo1/0OqXlyYY2Gz862PgjY4+7lR71cTMWvmaJ+BQ8Y9nM7PvaWnHmIWI/Va1Mq 5jfZEDjF/BVBDY7Bbj22gqW/KVkgDVOYUglmAtP2DNBkkJfKfjpUoL5XDojtPrl+Rcau Uq1K64qBegXsiKjDqIrz9kE+eVQYTIJGquyXG7OMuwZ/mMexhNJC7JOsxInQD1W/oeS7 YrJtXwAbIELJib/D7Cq4axKcV1q5P/nG0WD0juzhbGFCbAQFi0Pe4XvHnPVTDz6vRvd2 LkXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=89MnaZLA443/w937kqglE1DdBb+BgxX4WZYKV8x7Y3w=; b=Cq015sCDCNIrpktK8zK2h3hVR9/wgC0WgUJWy3ozeRDna4q5wP7ji0FEPSe1+AFGwb 1HRB52jyBec2nTNv3LHZkdJgMmJMpMls7ByGpb8XOJmK9//6Gi1zQ+nwqSwWmOlHriwA 3ygLf2jBjLbR4MsJDGR8mGqSHfEKFsU8yqCBjNkbyzmZlutSeLP9BzraibWSLi9I1PlO 2k+kYwXv1nv5Au8+t4213ZHn78ElLB9t9CSuyLIu9lLD7wZ1GSc6o1fv2CES1Oo+R4PQ zULqHyUUnjKr4n4H7Cd2ilw/HF9rVVN1ygMGUQB/XpNUMaUKlPo4wR/sc5PCC1h9R+nv oqPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531WrcCMZQ9TEFegZbuB9St4XGMgV8hCwouHT336J6OzWC5wucGP R2ficZnnQdsXdLoStzmhhxNzFsdvN7NwZ/A3nqeoWa90wWgr1w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxjAiYckT0ihiZGGB+hPcv1ZE3DLUkgOYre+KRgWposxlTbmO9ogxOJkFDeXaPAhLeWdtoNjTNKt+dcvUw1Lv4= X-Received: by 2002:adf:d4c7:: with SMTP id w7mr4309812wrk.35.1621516942967; Thu, 20 May 2021 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87bl985b3h.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <10eb58b2-5da3-b768-cf56-87aa447346d7@mailbox.org> <5a23225d-118a-d08e-a1d7-f9fe3791c1bf@mailbox.org> <87lf8a4z3a.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <52aade3f-3e8e-bd56-109e-c6cfd9254915@mailbox.org> <87mtsq3fy1.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <605c9586-384c-c4d4-d827-f97b1baf7c84@mailbox.org> <8959af45-54f3-da9f-5af2-e23a64bebadd@mailbox.org> In-Reply-To: <8959af45-54f3-da9f-5af2-e23a64bebadd@mailbox.org> From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 09:22:11 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Initial implementation of `biblatex' citation processor To: org-mode-email Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42b; envelope-from=bdarcus@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1621517159; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=89MnaZLA443/w937kqglE1DdBb+BgxX4WZYKV8x7Y3w=; b=azxaqMsCD5j4rwB2czUiEKMWxJLBagM1ejva3Jn2JwlUdDuSXDO+410WlnR2RVPk6HnQOS kKMv5Nfj0ZcxCXDN0GqxV0K+wZ5bFDpouYsaiVPKzBQGOdeVWrfcuDWaUSXbQVP8VWB9Pz jNyYdwzmjQ1YMP+QGH78DbvjqpeZNp/5Lzk6C/JWekWnY/VfDhE72eklLYUUCarp5SoZyA sTYYq+ZVdcULL3XsQsHOTUFPI4Kc1fdcU+zcbprHux3/VOBzq/k7hMEM9ntsp0Kq+f8zCX osxnQCXZUq0DpTQUA+P2+RxmBRpkPATiGZuAIfYDxNfXGkvzrxobWG6KLZ83Cg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1621517159; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=QFhjlsbS7G5bpIlCZCNpkkikQi1V4s1IppLQzz3y7pcVEj/Is9KKYbKBrNXj8q+FjUGQYQ Bnin+DUWpIjQ/jnryOinbDO4fXmG9FAYNlHhKsjAa/p7HV+7OizAKRUT88Oiprg/VtZDv/ /iTP4+SmHKp2gQQ6IGgutho74DJiRjaLi+P/uY+3xBPd0z8lZGfPfk/xtC29Bj0ZVGJExE zI6cwLX41tQ1NH0liYfmonQDB9M7/y38JYrCB3bdZY523OB/Xxy65cMO1xukHHQKw+Le2Q k6PC17YAkv33/x/Fl69vyzwkwx9/xT9EEA/GrVe+wL0/jk1cO5xjJXTjlbEp3w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="OYa7/L/p"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="OYa7/L/p"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 100A01B51E X-Spam-Score: -3.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: eIo8WpkJQuq4 On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:07 AM Denis Maier wrote: > > Am 20.05.2021 um 12:36 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: > > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:18 AM Denis Maier wrote: > >> But maybe cite/plain or cite/basic or so? > > > > First, are those two suggestions just synonyms for cite/bare? > > Yes. Nicolas complained about cite/bare so I've thought cite/plain may > be nicer. (See autocite=plain) But the biblatex manual uses itself the > term "bare". OK. I don't care; I suggested "bare" because the earlier "alt" was super vague. > > Or are you indeed suggesting completely changing the current logic of > > these styles and substyles? E.g "bare' substyle becomes rather a > > "plain" or "basic" style? > > I'm not really sure we need bare substyles at all. At least in biblatex > it's the basis for the other commands. Though see my followup message on autocite config. Does that change this discussion? ... > > If yes, I need to think on this more. > > > >> |-----------+---------------+--------------| > >> | parens | noauthor-caps | Parencite* | > >> | parens | noauthor | parencite* | > >> | parens | caps | Parencite | > >> | parens | | parencite | > >> |-----------+---------------+--------------| > >> | plain | noauthor-caps | Cite* | > >> | plain | noauthor | cite* | > >> | plain | caps | Cite | > >> | plain | | cite | > >> |-----------+---------------+--------------| > > > > Second, I don't understand some of the above. > > > > Why "noauthor", for example? Is that not handled currently with a "year" style? > > > > cite/year/caps > > First of all, what does capitalization of a number mean? There's no > \Citeyear in biblatex, after all. Right; I should not have used that example :-) > But that aside, \citeauthor, \citetitle and \citeyear are lower level > commands than \cite*{}. > \cite* will work in author-date styles and in author-title styles. It > will either print the date or the title. When using \citeyear directly > you cannot easily switch to a different style. And: citeyear etc. don't > use the internal trackers (ibid., idem., etc.). > > #+begin_example > At the beginning Doe argues this and that (2020, p. 20). He goes on to > say blabla, see ibid., p. 23. > #+end_example > > In order to get the ibid., you'll need a \cite* instead of just a > \citeyear or so. Shouldn't that example be covered in org-cite by, respectively ... cite/year cite/bare (or plain) ...? > > And how would all of this map to natbib and citeproc? > > > The style+substyles really should work well across the output formats, > > and gracefully fallback if certain variants, particularly in biblatex, > > aren't available in other formats. > > > > Is that the case with your suggested changes? > > The problem is indeed portability between csl and biblatex (and natbib). > I think it's unavoidable that users who use biblatex specific commands > loose that to a certain degree. Fallback mappings should be added, of > course, but they will only get you so far. We should probably indicate > which commands work in all packages so users can make their decisions > consciously. Yes, it seems highly likely that some of biblatex just won't fully work in other formats. But ideally we'd limit that. Bruce