From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8NHTCtcEiGAUWwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:34:31 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id 6ImWBtcEiGATPQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 12:34:31 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95E792730E for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:34:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:51330 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lbMv6-0001nf-T5 for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:34:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39424) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lbMtd-0001dM-RI for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:32:57 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x435.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::435]:44563) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lbMtZ-0002pB-1V for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:32:57 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x435.google.com with SMTP id h15so7043387wre.11 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 05:32:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VHxvypoTR0kQ8KY80ftfX4mVJETEMDQxPgbqykoe/00=; b=RmrL9RwbsL07SYXfVyP+R//OdkzWqdzz6qPD+kh67naSg/lRVL4OqQq+VneUo0xcyn fDVMxXaAWyg9FrE3Izkep7RmLFpCtVBleALhkRi/puPJ1H53MC7byPdeLxVv3QET5w+O y32NkWCJyNz17oUqMVG92d8bTDpTrBjiXfuGzDmFyk1WOWr6A9V00y3k390CA9zduAZu BkC946oZ/PpDMO/kn4fs+syPKRDC9x87MyTu0Zppy6J/IB5B7sZt8LgiDuh0FXVT3Ebd TV26NBp9eIQ2kY8cpkj+YUce/GzUn78S7iZgzwD70WuRz9ZcVzXcpTIWQ9qkw35InKUK guMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VHxvypoTR0kQ8KY80ftfX4mVJETEMDQxPgbqykoe/00=; b=pIIL+/1r5+uQn4buwFSQd+nR6+7aoOU+u5khdyAUjjcW2Vey/UNvSb2rsBCCUQg3PP HuX4C1fTCeZGONyC7aLsK+tMRQuE9WgnQiUXmC68VLsADeFaEEsCm6ywJpmMVkMjzXS4 HxV9NWDQccwgHNgH6EUTECSWyHOWmhsIVhhnqfjeJuyXZu3sGiyUyFT3drNbB3mcgINY 7JE212ZXL1QMkNFw4qzU7YGe3BLfgMqtE5Eu5JAzJk+Lio7r00SzKZ+NbJW+DboDSlmT f+7BhdvkfrfJaAOQWMz3ufSQr8qTj/ruTbMC27lOrs3CK5VYj3MVfqjuSprHNbioiSnj 3ucg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338kxeXlisR/W3rnqWpV3Ru+lJYDYgv3Gs5sm/rJqWypnTLmPNe V1P6zQDic8YeG/Yuu2Afhr8r6uAAApLySMIgvKd4m9Aw/MLGqA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhasMvqkgjaOfHZufrubbSKk3MTDkKXCZvEqJIo/R1ze7yQJ2vp9LdgPihRM8Bf1YgGA7hlSH5FHT7UePMBJM= X-Received: by 2002:adf:ec02:: with SMTP id x2mr19307616wrn.35.1619526771433; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 05:32:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <874ktu8gr9.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87czuzprmh.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87sg3neo0k.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87eef35h7n.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87a6pr5g4m.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <877dkt2pce.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <878s57fubm.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <412bc0f0-1c08-781e-da05-d86686b82620@mailbox.org> In-Reply-To: <412bc0f0-1c08-781e-da05-d86686b82620@mailbox.org> From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:32:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback To: Denis Maier Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::435; envelope-from=bdarcus@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x435.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" , =?UTF-8?Q?Andr=C3=A1s_Simonyi?= Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619526870; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=VHxvypoTR0kQ8KY80ftfX4mVJETEMDQxPgbqykoe/00=; b=G/QT52yxI5g2d7qu+lE5YXqzFHImE65HjEFqEqKj9QZn2jmE23/ESUCaIJMxJu1JEB50pn rj2X5VLXGbRCTH6G/ODN568h0x6pH3rNvhQQR0VDDPHffHb/40dRKz/zPfOIvxz9fGIMfa uvurLI0YWiY/Xh1WvTB6z956JtuTUMyTkEQJXD4CfDMXTSC1jn6QA08HaAurfmpltN5afb vp9+9m45ogfNoC+djoxtn49m338wcqNAPCn2rO7fsoF8pTsbBpvwQrOljObBCoso1IHx/b nVJVwLyBNvtc9xNj0VcwjmvJ9ZY8B2RMRwZZ8mELNuhcPOVTpIGezCpGoBpcTA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619526870; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=OOuG9tMSlkZ69bu04OTGyBwn2G79ULAnYqphpQxQCzfExPOA++SHR2QZJWZvNJxoCpN3mR /Pygl3kNs0rHQ8k9ii059rzi2gZfSAYaOFMHxRCV5fiebU2uTezgSnHeruT4cXy/kCZZFV jkmC8ZxZOQ2istwPq5gSoCIao6pEhJII0sRIykxnkvWckU29kGS2+VZi8/NahaYdQKTvix J+kH0M4bYbFJGdrudSeApThckCa4srWT/ClX8ee7NywPimqGI7yJZqZwhX7wb8lO7EPhD5 bZWkBUholmDgwl0P4HiAgOa6abhzV7n0Dd3wANMr0LlZg10BHJLTxc1xL8Bsew== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=RmrL9Rwb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.15 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=RmrL9Rwb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 95E792730E X-Spam-Score: -3.15 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: zDOhGOKngyfR On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 7:44 AM Denis Maier wrote: > Regarding simpler ways, why not just: > > "A simple quote." [cite: @doe p. 45] No, that's worse ;-) Let's review basic requirements: 1. a plain text document really should be readable and its semantics clear 2. a user should be able to write their documents, and use different output styles, without modifying that source document Your example fails on 1 because it suggests the citation attaches to (starts) the following sentence. 2 is hard given the details we've laid out, but if whatever solution works for the majority of cases, and at worst requires the user either a) to be aware of how the processing works and adjust accordingly+, and/or b) to edit the final document a bit, that seems a reasonable balance. Bruce + a lot of the corner cases in citations come from a mismatch between the need for a certain regularity and rigor required for machine--processing, and users' desire for complete flexibility.