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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Tom Gillespie , John Kitchin Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1633872767; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=T9mB+Zxu9HQ/OJTDDwFXljhYxESq2/onVhgwWVkmNaI=; b=S/BXjedQagTmxlrjZfajM/Xb7pCVfNHZ6NhL0tdjO1a3THJtR4oylbCoS5eoOXo5a7L0qh w3/CEFL3QtyfU0cp5C2mAHP6zyCxuiHyZDVWj+OqhZTv/IKQz7NI4zM1/pXDXYOjsMnIuA j2k0+tq34Q75+Pp/Sx0nX5lLlldfed614CNi6OQxJSSln+/7jQQqBW2pC/p0NDr8Fi3CoO g5oxam7QtOE7qKdIOmldeHKOLdgE1lwBsRUrCh67CbzzSJdbZNex8oV3H+27GsA6ofaNY6 COuIGEZPfUXorvfItpH77PLPlPmhn7ZUyKpFKhKKJI27+/4b6Mk3TBpL+y4h9g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1633872767; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=VaDm5Mqy7LMBmD28uGGOiLBAWD8/2N0WmYKff3MIwTAebto2lg1G80EQJXjJ/09Phekew5 1FFyzGa/6WFnEU08+D2xmw6bkRJFqsLc0lfWhlCtwM3cYFGRXqxuHxRJrefrtqFCR+XCoO Kxt1JCVZ3oPBfvWXIbpzkqwfX0tlEOLW5DZL+DhXg8zf97Vmj0DqGSbrq2TCUJK6uhlXH5 pqNUM9VACPEufaRlmUZO9TluNPzwAHVNBoQsgT8NpaLOEHKp0AxsRoqh6pamYqC4qSgqa3 wASgY8LwEPxGgMUVbiI0qDT5UpD9Vj+CpqdofV8ML7bws0IJxgXYmpbsxD2fCA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=EkuABOZY; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.71 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=EkuABOZY; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 271582BDE5 X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: scfWcILtHwKM Can we go back to this question of whether internal links are adequate for cross-references, and if not, what's missing? On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 11:22 AM Eric S Fraga wrote: > > Hello John & co., > > I need to chime in when it comes to the UI: > > On Thursday, 12 Aug 2021 at 13:19, John Kitchin wrote: > > I would say the UI that I like, have used for many years, and is the > > default of org-ref is: > > > > 1. You type C-c ] to insert a citation > > 2. You type C-u C-c ] to insert a cross-reference > > 3. you type C-u C-u C-c ] to insert a new label. > > UI is a very personal thing. So long as there are 3 different functions > that implement these actions, I would be happy... [snip] > In terms of the bigger picture, citations and cross-references, to me, > are different things (one is external and the other usually internal, > respectively) and I see no benefit in conflating them. I am also still > not convinced that org links are not sufficient ... In reviewing and playing with this functionality a bit, it's clear to me that internal links are intended to be cross-references, even if they fall short for certain classes of users. Let's take a simple example of a figure, adapted from the manual: #+begin_example #+CAPTION: This is the caption. #+NAME: fig:SED-HR4049 [[./img/a.jpg]] Here's a cross-reference to Figure [[fig:SED-HR4049]]. #+end_example This internal link seems to produce consistent and correct output across latex, html, and odt. The "fig" prefix is meaningful to ref in latex to enable it to type that cross-reference. I'm unsure how typing in the odt context works, but it does. The only downside is one has to manually, per the example, insert the prefix (here "Figure ") in text (though this is a small price to pay in my view). If one wants to use cleveref or autoref instead, as is now possible with a recent commit, those packages handle that automatically. But of course, this only works in latex, so you lose the consistency across the backends. Also, you then need to be able to specify different variants locally (for example, cref vs Cref), which is not possible currently. So I'm unclear: is that added functionality and complexity really needed? Is there something else I'm missing? A separate, possibly more important (?), matter is UI and supporting functionality. I think it would be nice to have better UI support for inserting these references. To John's point, could we add interactive functions to insert labels and cross-references (say as customizable functions?), using the existing internal link support, and iterate that support over time? Bruce