From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id WKJjC+KqpmEzrgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:51:14 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id EH0bB+KqpmGaawAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 22:51:14 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEE7514330 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:51:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:53274 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msBxw-0001iG-DO for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:51:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34926) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msBxF-0001fu-Js for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:50:29 -0500 Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c] (port=36549 helo=mail-pl1-x62c.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msBxD-0007DI-4O for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:50:29 -0500 Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id u11so16136802plf.3 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:50:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=W8lYZI7C44+eiY3rp7fY5zN6qbCXNE/k/BVvF9/Vh3k=; b=LcHxyEIbkAfl9INFCPlt6p6egdv84iqwhOVsDsltqTTFOFLY4oSVUcYNcvifQnUE8l cB9WSIYgYw79jl9Aw+1LdFVofbbm9NXBHi93sptFO8hJGCiaiyE6m3AyilNxbv+G3Cv7 /n1AM9i+rxNrHWVNGrPfK65HE/tKtasrYocuzKkHdXl0g6lVjsg9tm7Takg5IOctezOM oM0uGVUSc0LbRR6k5/57rAQ5NfbjKGQnx2l+Fj7Y8HKAfGEaBC3f3x7EpY6lbUnNR79r ZIlfKQeGlge45/E7IPnt69mAtxCrDijabn6b6oB4gPntpRqmrwZnYozn41i2iojGK5J9 wq8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=W8lYZI7C44+eiY3rp7fY5zN6qbCXNE/k/BVvF9/Vh3k=; b=agIahdRVvE82NF9DBkw8cnX5xqMXDadwPGy6kBsbCPVMDDOBGwnSuIa81k9Suxq7uB aA2VFZK44dyHzXaqu2lx1GZrDSebQEwanSB0vdfxnjgKkicHuyY2gR1Z3gvs9pwVVJ42 0MyrJ+w0/mpcwOH+D9I0FLACqpe+UcKT5swQ/zvgi3V39PaF/gfsruV2L5BtffUTtRKv agA54f1opDsh27QVH4czCMOQZjvTwn0POOdnhMwRPzMQI7yR+EcKZ9Sq9ssXAnc738D2 kzt30A7nVjPB2ZTqvpBX1PiG0k2x9aK8VPV+YVAP70eiRHsAZpJgDHNGGgkIeLZb0l22 YtGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530HXuxAUYBGqVWuZ4d+kHE2An9JI7J+GREX5bSC47+jxuYRtnK0 O9vh3R92MotnIKqwl8QWgRdITMaXu6Gt0wOP1bh7jb6CO7s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxvwhCbBrqa1Rf/zzpCgaXjLtFr+uvzLwrQUWMaLz5ho3N61aMFYvQKKud3Qe7EJwkYcJe/4pN6xncXZJFq1wI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b712:b0:143:72b7:4096 with SMTP id d18-20020a170902b71200b0014372b74096mr2547023pls.25.1638312624566; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:50:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <875ysb7v1r.fsf@gmail.com> <2021-11-29T14-12-55@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <87tufuu8ah.fsf@atlantis> <2021-11-30T21-02-53@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> In-Reply-To: <2021-11-30T21-02-53@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> From: Eduardo Ochs Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 19:50:13 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Orgdown: negative feedback & attempt of a root-cause analysis (was: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode) To: Karl Voit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Org Mode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638312673; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=W8lYZI7C44+eiY3rp7fY5zN6qbCXNE/k/BVvF9/Vh3k=; b=nqr9nepKGfSuLJBe2O5j5ZrGhZnCQq+hdz46gUtNT3QjY6k79L/jiVwnf8CzDccKveXiJN 5l7Dyxo3yioHzWtvNOUPAlcQeYsdBXY7RBdUjPpcOOwWkP4OxxB3XcJ3AQVzItHIIsZKBz +QNdAjmxxCf4ITFZtru8PCRpruTwv7k0DX+Ofh5OA3FeMbFfFi96hgUc9QsHzKEuL3x6Z5 Db4dZZsr4IjQkzpJ79d9v2kEJ9ClrTnNAlmlE0aMc/q4SojaE2S2NEGU4RzQJpw2RE9Ty7 r5HJN/KePjNFMYC0UAwqrhLv5TzMeJk2c/dOsCQ9dvg734mq1RdY/0ffEuZ9iQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638312673; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=qkc2TsaafhW+JRBhG28vMFremUng4buALmVlWUnSC1Fmy96fD0V6HJPASYa+8yDxvnfcqx /VNarxhvxv01dDLVhjTvBDRNcxgznWOZ712HTTInCSRcw41lxhxjBcDIbXMNQy/wm4lm1h pbeM05JHVv9pfW84W/MzQoTA9viJIBz+qI9Lfrg41f5jFZiZfWhpFLPLC4hMa3L01/kjE8 I0H3iisWBu79hal38f/TGI3ll6knpGZHAffljxtBH+NLJHXV20FZF5Q+LjQbp6raP4Dofi F1/qzQTUe8LDCjGMiZN3e1CpSHZj5bfMCPE54zYKLcjhIL5dcl6L4CVSz92gNw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=LcHxyEIb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.79 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=LcHxyEIb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: AEE7514330 X-Spam-Score: -4.79 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: PntCHvCqtE2Q On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 at 17:46, Karl Voit wrote: > > I chose an in-between approach: defining only a minimal set (name, > common structure/idea/documentation, Orgdown1, providing a > collaborative home on GitLab) and hope for a project community that > will take over (or at least support) from there, discussing syntax > elements for Orgdown2 and taking the project to its next logical > steps. > > In hindsight, this decision was wrong. > > Quite frankly, I don't have the energy to throw away everything and > start from zero with a different name. > > People do not seem to realize what it took to get there - which is > partly understandingly because I had to learn by doing what it takes > to get the idea into a coherent and consistent form. > > Simply switching to a different name is not just search&replace. It > would reset the project almost to its very start again, losing the > go-live effect of previous weekend (whose effect might be > questionable considering the name discussion), its project URL that > is now out there, the motivation video which aims to explain the > motivation to users of Emacs, the EmacsConf21 talk publicity, and it > would require much effort to reach the status where Orgdown is now. Hi Karl, I was at the EmacsConf2021, but I was totally exhausted due to other chores and spoke to very few people there... I think that your work is VERY important. I am one of the people who have tried to learn Org lots of times and got stuck the same number of times, and any initiative that splits the features - either syntactic or semantics - into layers of different complexity and importance will help me very much. My suggestion about the name is: it's your project, changing its name is not a trivial task, and the people who complained about the name did not offer help. If I were you would simply put "find a better name for the project and change its name to it" in my TODO list as a low-priority task. Cheers =), Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev https://emacsconf.org/2021/talks/test/