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To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Org Mode Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::235; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x235.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1653691097; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=7vrN0b5Ww93W5oOhlnXbSe7kP2GYOLa3oefggylVCts=; b=crbrJ0mJ0SR055WC0qseZtKzXj4G844OZnScwzhwx10RaRpxOJvcC+NnkiN/zxRIT9jgkc UJ4lZU5xmbSKhIC1S9NI6vOBjVpPnlJbQEK8rSI04puLYzprIUzwvWXOh4SJZPBvhxfvhg z02rJvj4/A5dXD3hi4TDvaSv3z/GHmFBWDBW9Nj/LLw5pru/z5q03kWFWgDFsDGkA8iZLE HWX2s3qSYUOANmdL7m/E7iozhiy5o7lbemrbJ3OcQLGDlRPSvm6T8k19HG11syjKt3SpwM p8NGsk8N/3jVhvUVA44NjuuzpnFGSCwpEXHawibk0Y8ViP6KUyNnvXiC7HqqaQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1653691097; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=oQA7lan7vcbcSQSwJMFnNhzc26JvHpDaX+s70kI4buu4Dg4ydKZESS2AiSWoayvMh497mG q+CsdmjcGthztN9sDWBVs88J25dYWGA/wnN4d4gT76YuhWdzT8VHQy3idFXmqYQq/Ucyfv gM4kfCPqT5q+IPPozumdyL2dM6fO+5rNR4j7dU/mxI6q0ND9lZtc0d3VI+mFeoXGmOBu4m Tm7OKSy415Xmk7IZO2x5PDyTAOcxKgI5gkIbLbXtiBWn95QavvXlSbA8L5wCI1DhiuXg6q AuL/HsJh9HEIcsQ2a4iCnrlpWTkwbG7iVCrZdKte+aCDeew6tJxbqwUUvX4UCA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=TWh1WEmB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 3.95 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=TWh1WEmB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A08923E908 X-Spam-Score: 3.95 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: +ERFSf+/40eS Hi Ihor! Thanks for your questions! On Fri, 27 May 2022 at 11:30, Ihor Radchenko wrote: > You are discussing too many things at once in one video. Yes - that's why I made an index for the video: (find-1stclassvideoindex "2022eevwconfig") http://angg.twu.net/.emacs.videos.html#2022eevwconfig > What is the main point you want to explain in the video? How to > download, watch, and annotate a series of videos? If so, you only talk > about it in the last minutes of the presentation. The video has many "main points". > Also, do you expect people new to emacs understand all the > (commmand args) staff? Yes, in my view of "what is Emacs" the first thing that people need to learn is eval-last-sexp and its more convenient variants. See the page 10 of my slides for the EmacsConf2019: http://angg.twu.net/LATEX/2019emacsconf.pdf#page=10 > I still fail to understand what is the advantage of eev compared to Org > or Hyperbole (which also provides context-free actionable links). Here are my current hypotheses: 1) my brain is wired in an atypical way; 2) about 95% of the people find Org "easy" and "fun", and eev makes no sense to them - and about 5% of the people find Org very hard, and they find eev much "easier" and "more fun" than Org. I explained this in the eev-wconfig video, starting from 33:27: (find-2022eevwconfigvideo "33:27") http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm29XSdGCXw#t=33m27s That part mentions this other video, Title: Org for Non-Users (2021) MP4: http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2021-org-for-non-users.mp4 YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh5Wz9Vh_XM Page: http://angg.twu.net/2021-org-for-non-users.html Comment: On why Org and eev follow opposite principles. Date: 2021dec11 Length: 10:08 Index: http://angg.twu.net/.emacs.videos.html#2021orgfornonusers (find-1stclassvideoindex "2021orgfornonusers") and sort of summarizes it. Let me copy here the subtitles of that part of the eev-wconfig video: So: in this video I explained why I have always found Org so hard to learn... and the thing is that many things in Org are implemented in ways that i don't understand, and practically every time that I try to learn more more features of org I get stuck, because I start to ask questions like: hey, how is this implemented? And I get stuck trying to trying to answer these questions, that are not typical user questions... and I get stuck on that instead of simply learning how to use the features of Org as a user. So: I find Org confusing because my brain is wired in a weird way... and, in the language of black boxes what happens is that when I try to learn Org... I try to learn a new feature, I see lots of black boxes, I try to open these black boxes, and I fail miserably... and I get frustrated and exhausted I, do not learn the feature and I postpone learning the feature to another day, and in the other day I try it again, I see other black boxes, I try to understand them again, and blah blah, rinse and repeat... and I also have exactly the same relationship with M-x customized, that the standard way in Emacs to configure certain things and to customize certain things. Let me show how customize works We can either type M-x customize or run this sexp here, that simulates what happens when we type M-x customize. Customize creates a temporary buffer like this one... it has this mysterious field here, it has parts that are not editable - for example, if I type a letter here - oops if I type a letter here it says "you can't edit this part of the Custom buffer"... it has buttons, it has different fonts, different colors, it has links, and so on... and if I follow these links in the right way I can get to places like this one which is a sub menu with sub options, I can get to a place like this one that offers many things that can be configured, each one with an explanation... I can execute things like this one, that opens this page, in which I can customize a variable... and things like this in which I can customize a face to change its color, to change its font... and so on - and for me all these things - all these buttons, this rectangle here, in which I can put text all these things are... magic - and they are black boxes that I find very hard to open. And over the years I have experimented with several alternatives to customize that "use less magic"... I've documented some of my attempts in this page here, and this thing that I'm presenting now - eev-wconfig.el - this is the next step: it uses all the ideas in this page, and a few other new ideas. > I recommend recording a much shorted video demonstrating a singe task > you perform using eev. No need to side track explaining Elisp syntax. No > need to show troubleshooting. No need to show things users "are not > supposed to understand". No need to show initial configuration with all > possible caveats. There are lots of short demos scattered through the videos... here's one that has subtitles. If you run this # Index: http://angg.twu.net/.emacs.videos.html#2022pict2elua # Info: (find-1stclassvideo-links "2022pict2elua") export S=$HOME/snarf mkdir -p $S/http/angg.twu.net/eev-videos/ cd $S/http/angg.twu.net/eev-videos/ wget -nc http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.mp4 wget -nc http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.vtt mpv $S/http/angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.mp4 then you can use the keys [ and ] to make mpv change the playing speed, and you can watch the full 8-minute video in just one or two minutes. If you prefer to watch it on Youtube the link is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHsUhGVLGM > No need to side track explaining Elisp syntax. No > need to show troubleshooting. No need to show things users "are not > supposed to understand". No need to show initial configuration with all > possible caveats. Can you explain these "no need"s? Except for the red stars and anchors _all_ the "markup language" of eev consists of explicit sexps... > You argue that Org is a "black box", but your code is also a black box > in a sense that one needs to read the "wconfig" files (AFAIU). How is it > different compared to Org written in Elisp following the usual > documentation conventions described in the Elisp manual? Eev-wconfig is only needed for configuring things on Windows. On, say, Debian, people only need to install google-chrome (obs: it's easy to use other browsers instead), and do this: sudo apt-get install wget xpdf pdftotext mpv after that all the features will work. Here are two examples of cases in which I stumbled on black boxes that I never managed to open properly, one in Org and one in Hyperbole: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-12/msg00674.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-02/threads.html#00098 https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/msg00012.html Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev http://angg.twu.net/#eev-blogposts