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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1656267484; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=T28YZTslBXtDb+9NLGA/kkczcHriWohjv2ZQCv+sWqc=; b=IwAS3Xz9WyZQI6xCJcKA1u2qvXx09cAaVKyApUtHSP4hVzl8z6lHJ0roAKTQN/p8a5gtKV PQohHxK+asZ2V6vmV8NsLt3oaH/b6dIIsB9iNffB0iEzXP7Bd1hTHO6iCzM9OxG/9inJez asx29RRLUH0kErKBmFKB1slqXM8TwNlvUoQaznmDMK+hWcSBZ/vTr9Qh6TyZbwrUvTLB/D o60lurjWdBY0blaIueh7E+GTy2uae2NOpG8oE24Z95tme01nBT9yY6LmMKjkkKwQqb1kV3 rWDA+O/UZP4RWJ4fBOxoNbo6YY4ltcpsR+E8ojSUIsbvoiPTebLKD5N1vcEBew== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1656267484; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=A2+PU9Luy0KmN9FbqyHBRDILt1Z2SBYy/tnajViVvWZNFvxHhTfJA2+owZ87f7KUrPxH6y ezGtthqSlqVwGa5ATzMcloy83uVvO7eaerW+HhczJkZ7NfvYtjW0nXY0gvqQA8nZiVsTqH YSQQ8fBl4DjhV1Ygng1J75wxEHMC3CxKFkfhPaBq4M5TOIaeK2yNh1sN4TeXOA9PuWwMWL T3HTtCJIgoLywlfwWCyS74hwQC52PmaqcWMyHaVEkvXHczvVW+u5KgBa/Ngx6xVW6lcIV0 ew+nh4ULYKzvSpZOvY0vIXl/EGlVeeJbzGY+Vhe9kaJLC70WMTDYcfDGxWwDAQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=j1n86x4o; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.46 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=j1n86x4o; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: C85BB15AD8 X-Spam-Score: -2.46 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: 5Fsn2Mky4q/R On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 13:29, Robert Weiner wrote: > Hi Eduardo: > > I really think that you are confused in saying that Hyperbole and Org are= hacker-unfriendly. Yes, they are targeted at users who don't have to unde= rstand the programming, but if you do understand Lisp programming well, the= interactive features are available as Lisp functions in almost all cases, = so you simply have to dive in, find the functions you want and utilize or c= hange them. > > In fact, Hyperbole offers 'action implicit buttons' that utilize angle-br= acket syntax to turn any Lisp function (or hyperbole button type call or va= riable reference) into a hyperbutton that runs the function with arguments = or displays the variable, e.g. . > > With Hyperbole, much of the behavior is factored into class-like librarie= s with the 'methods' alphabetized and separated into public and private gro= upings. Now some of this code is complex in order to handle many contexts = and make things simple to the user but that is a matter of you understandin= g this complexity if you want to hack on it. > > I'm not sure what else you could ask for in packages. Hi Robert, let me see if I can find something useful to say... Most of the people that I know who became active users of eev were "beginner programmers" when they started using eev - by "beginner programmers" I mean that their mental buffers were still quite small, and they couldn't understand well functions that were more than a few lines long. I wanted to make eev more accessible to people like them, and I treated their feedback very seriously. One of the techniques that I used to make eev more accessible to them is described in this video, http://angg.twu.net/find-elisp-intro.html (find-1stclassvideo-links "2022findelispintro") (find-2022findelispintrovideo "14:36") from 14:36 onwards - "put several similar examples close to one another, starting by the most basic ones". I treated that technique as "obvious" for many years - I just used it in many places, and I thought that the users would notice that pattern, and start to use it in their own notes. That didn't work, and I saw that I had to spell out that technique explicitly, and repeat it often. When I asked you questions about how to create eev-style sexps that would behave as hyperbole-style buttons, in some of the e-mails that I point to here, http://angg.twu.net/hyperbole.html I was signaling that my mental buffers were almost full... at that point explanations in English helped me very little, and I was trying to write "several similar examples close to one another, starting by the most basic ones" to factor your code conceptually via tests. I _still_ think that your buttons and menus are hacker-unfriendly. The source code is available, yes, but I spent several evenings trying to understand them in my "non-user" way, and I got a mental buffer overflow instead of enlightenment... and I also spent many hours writing e-mails to the Hyperbole mailing list, but the answers left me very frustrated. Hope that helps, =3D/ Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev