From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id 8JzkGsszoF+EQAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 16:28:59 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id OBDTFsszoF/nZgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 16:28:59 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D140B940222 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 16:28:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:39382 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZchV-000856-QT for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 11:28:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43038) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZcgC-0007EY-Gl for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 11:27:36 -0500 Received: from mail-vs1-f49.google.com ([209.85.217.49]:35360) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZcgA-0000Cj-Gm for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 11:27:36 -0500 Received: by mail-vs1-f49.google.com with SMTP id t8so4960253vsr.2 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:27:33 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=fji4FcUf72a+BnE5A/UnlBeAhGDivWA+0kZxhOh3s28=; b=h9KQ7JRXl9nOALNCelyhgPig/Q9LiMik40nX1xBw6Kp3wSTDAnvhIRZykOpXAwixUL Wu2CzHyBEkspz8z6YRIyEsJ6b+gSk/BQ9kfj4HxN6t6+NFw1z1SDTokE5kwAO/+qhrxW t5no6h4PU9MePTm6/F53G9QrIVIN2aurzun3XI8MK9EwP9z0uqdRbawqgWjAVVR2pdop U4cvUJwohauMRJkQGVButwwLlofIxiGZaloctIGz4WFGu26cuRniho265B1gqVl0X7/I qil6Ikb72D+sdLASfwWi4ToAFyGbQhDqc37fHcUwBoEt+AkkRBU4zS0Gj9q6nIl0ukmQ pv5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336p64GI7j0wl24XvoiFR4ytyarQrfaI5S9q1xL58RN3ttNkjYw iH1zaNHfLlEvymbGey4NH7CdPmyurY+FsJoaHMes7Cdx7k5smw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxlqGZNpOumf2rl0XLUe/yuew79bdwu7lL3X0tjJe2IGDFhd8/cacZixzWfy3mmuGH/ZdDPt/lJ0DvZs1XBZY0= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fd64:: with SMTP id h4mr15087751vsa.38.1604334452568; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 08:27:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1187707.1604326959@apollo2.minshall.org> <87mtzz958l.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <20201102152333.GL6609@maokai> <878sbj92va.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <878sbj92va.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> From: Carsten Dominik Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 17:27:15 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Thoughts on the standardization of Org To: org-mode list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002575c405b3223920" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.217.49; envelope-from=carsten.dominik@gmail.com; helo=mail-vs1-f49.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/02 11:27:33 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=uva.nl (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.91 X-TUID: rx3Puh9PQI1F --0000000000002575c405b3223920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear all, this is an interesting discussion to read, and I think lots of clever people have made this an interesting discussion. So I hesitated to even join the discussion, because I am quite removed from current development and no longer feel qualified to guide it. Still, my 5c. For me, it seems unrealistic to standardize Org in a way that make it desirable or even feasible to have *full implementations* in other tools. What makes sense it to have tools that can - *display* org files in a pleasant and useful way - *convert* org files into other formats, with some accepted loss of functionality - *write* org files that then will function properly in Emacs. Orgzly is a fantastic example. It reads and displays Org files, understands enough syntax to provide very useful functionality, and is decent enough to not change stuff that is does not understand and use, so that the files it writes are again fully functional in Emacs. It seems to me that this covers most of what we can hope for, as a basic formula. No definition of Org syntax can fully know what I have done in my personal environment, and therefore will not be able to reproduce that functionality elsewhere. This is intrinsic in Org and Emacs, I think. The efforts to clean up the markup syntax have been fantastic (thank you, in particular, Nicolas), and they have made it possible to have meaningful parsers like the one on github. And they provide a certain guarantee that the three items I list above will work, also going forward. Now, do I want that an arbitrary web browser or email client understands if a file is org syntax, and that clicking on it should open Emacs. Yes, I would like that. So in that sense, a mime type would be useful, for sure. Greetings Carsten On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 4:50 PM Eric S Fraga wrote: > On Monday, 2 Nov 2020 at 16:23, Russell Adams wrote: > > #+BEGIN_RANT > > [...] > > #+END_RANT > > Apologies for my comment then! :-( I am fully sympathetic to the views > you have expressed. > > Let me rephrase, therefore: it could be interesting to see Emacs as a > SaaS which processes org mode documents. But, note, I only say it might > be interesting. I am not particularly keen on cloud services for all > kinds of reasons including ownership, security, etc. > > My solution is to have Emacs with me at all times so I have org & gnus & > erc & emms & ... :-) I have a Planet Computers Gemini and an > OpenPandora, for this reason, and am awaiting the soon to be available > Pyra with impatience to have a fully open system (open software in the > form of Debian & Emacs and open hardware, as much as is possible at the > moment). > > -- > : Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4-61-ga88806.dirty > > --0000000000002575c405b3223920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

this is an interes= ting discussion to read, and I think lots of=C2=A0 clever people have made = this an interesting discussion. So I hesitated to even join the discussion,= because I am quite removed from current development and no longer feel qua= lified to guide it.=C2=A0 Still, my 5c.

For me= , it seems unrealistic to standardize Org in a way that make it desirable o= r even feasible to have *full implementations* in other tools.=C2=A0 What m= akes sense it to have tools that can

- *display* o= rg files in a pleasant and useful way
- *convert* org files into = other formats, with some accepted loss of functionality
- *wr= ite* org files that then will function properly in Emacs.

Orgzly is a fantastic example.=C2=A0 It reads and displays Org file= s, understands enough syntax to provide very useful functionality, and is d= ecent enough to not change stuff that is does not understand and use, so th= at the files it writes are again fully functional in Emacs.

<= /div>
It seems to me that this covers most of what we can hope for, as = a basic formula.=C2=A0 No definition of Org syntax can fully know what I ha= ve done in my personal environment, and therefore will not be able to repro= duce that functionality elsewhere.=C2=A0 This is intrinsic in Org and Emacs= , I think.

The efforts to clean up the markup = syntax have been fantastic (thank you, in particular, Nicolas), and they ha= ve made it possible to have meaningful parsers like the one on github.=C2= =A0 And they provide a certain guarantee that the three items I list above = will work, also going forward.

Now, do I want= that an arbitrary web browser or email client understands if a file is org= syntax, and that clicking on it should open Emacs.=C2=A0 Yes, I would like= that.=C2=A0 So in that sense, a mime type would be useful, for sure.
=

Greetings

Carsten

On = Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 4:50 PM Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
On Monday,=C2=A0 2 Nov 2020 at 16:23, Russell Adams= wrote:
> #+BEGIN_RANT
> [...]
> #+END_RANT

Apologies for my comment then!=C2=A0 :-( I am fully sympathetic to the view= s
you have expressed.

Let me rephrase, therefore: it could be interesting to see Emacs as a
SaaS which processes org mode documents.=C2=A0 But, note, I only say it mig= ht
be interesting.=C2=A0 I am not particularly keen on cloud services for all<= br> kinds of reasons including ownership, security, etc.=C2=A0

My solution is to have Emacs with me at all times so I have org & gnus = &
erc & emms & ... :-) I have a Planet Computers Gemini and an
OpenPandora, for this reason, and am awaiting the soon to be available
Pyra with impatience to have a fully open system (open software in the
form of Debian & Emacs and open hardware, as much as is possible at the=
moment).

--
: Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4-61-ga88806.dirty

--0000000000002575c405b3223920--