From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Joseph Vidal-Rosset Subject: Re: Let's discuss citation and Org syntax Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 09:08:44 +0100 Message-ID: References: <878v38cylw.fsf@pank.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1b73a99386e04eef84eda Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33414) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VydL6-0002g7-CD for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 03:09:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VydL0-0007Ll-Ib for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 03:09:12 -0500 Received: from mail-wg0-x22e.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c00::22e]:63195) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VydL0-0007Lh-7h for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 03:09:06 -0500 Received: by mail-wg0-f46.google.com with SMTP id m15so11984407wgh.1 for ; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 00:09:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <878v38cylw.fsf@pank.eu> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Rasmus Cc: emacs-orgmode list --001a11c1b73a99386e04eef84eda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Rasmus, hi the list, Reading this thread I've understood that the question of html export of biblatex citations is still an open problem for org-mode developers, right ? Thanks to the online manual and the help of the list, I have succeeded to write a template of koma-article class which is correctly exported both in latex and in html. But I meet the problem of exporting into html footnotes and references. At the moment, what is the best i.e. the more convenient solution? My best wishes for this new year, Jo. 2013/5/21 Rasmus > Hi, > > Now that 8.0 has shipped let's talk bibliography support. This > follows directly upon the discussion around March[1]. > > The essence of the thread was that some people agreed that it would be > nice to have support for citation commands build into Org (I'll > summarize in the next post). But let me first restate my own take on > the issue. IMO a nice format would be: > > (*) [KEYWORD PROPERTIES] > > I think we should allow for a more general approach than one just for > citation and this is a good thing (IMO). > > The in-buffer display of (*) could be governed by > org-buffer-format-KEYWORD (similar to > gnus-user-format-function-LETTER) or just identity if no function is > defined. Export could be handled by org-BACKEND-KEYWORD or > org-export-KEYWORD. With officially recognized KEYWORDs something > like citation could be a 'first-class citizen'. PROPERTIES could be a > string like: > > optional-keyless-entry :prop1 one :prop2 two ... > > Perhaps, treatment of keyword, could even be handled by an > in-buffer Org Babel function in the spirit of e.g. reproducible > research (see below). > > This would be different from Org links in that (*) is more like a > functions that allows for (i) pretty and informative display in > buffer/export and (ii) easy user extension. > > I think there are many compelling use-cases for such a framework. > > 1. Citation: Take the keyword citetext which should be an 'official' > KEYWORD. So for instance we could have > > [citetext BIBTEX-KEY :prenote note, w/comma :postnote blah]. > > In buffers, via org-in-buffer-format-citetext, it would be > displayed as > > BIBTEX-KEY (note, w/comma, YEAR, blah) > > or something similar (depending to what extend bibtex.el would be > leveraged; e.g. BIBTEX-KEY might show the author/editor key and > YEAR would also depend on parsing a bibtex file) (obviouesly, > there's some reference to a bibtex file somewhere). In LaTeX it > would be exported as > > \citetext[note,w/comma][blah]{BIBTEX-KEY} > > In html it might utilize some tool that understand bibtex (there's > a link to such a tool in the next post). In ASCII it could almost > use what would be displayed in the buffer. > > 2. MY-FUN: MY-FUN is some function that does something with some > properties, perhaps just a string (simple cases: [sc text] is used > for small caps, or mayhaps [my-treat-dna-string DNA-STRING]). I > might use it in a single file that I want to send to people or I > might just use it in my notes. Currently it's implemented via > org-emphasis-alist or as a link. Changing emphases is a hacks, and > they are hard to export with the now more robust Org syntax and > further permit little control over how they are displayed > in-buffer. Links are more flexible but lacks display control and > becomes somewhat painful with many arguments[2]. Also, MY-FUN > doesn't take a 'description'. With (*) I could simply write > > [MY-FUN PROPERTIES]. > > Perhaps, I could even define org-BACKEND-MY-FUN in a babel block > if it's only relevant to the current file. > > There's been some work and some discussion on this already, most > notably Aaron already supplied some patches towards this end[3], > but using a slightly different syntax more like the link syntax; > e.g. textcite above would look like > > [[textcite:bibtex-key&&pre%3Dfoo&&post%3Dbar][whatever]] > > where whatever is ignored. The state of the discussion is to some > extend summarized in the next post. > > It would love to hear whether other people find something like this to > be a good idea? Would anyone find a use such a framework? Would (*) > conflict with anyone's current usage of Org? Is (*) too ambitious and > in terms of getting citation support? Is this is taking a musket to > kill a butterfly? What are the the flaws in the above. > > I'm not a good (lisp) programmer, but I think I have a month off this > summer where I could work on something like the above. > > Thanks for reading, > Rasmus > > Footnotes: > [1] http://mid.gmane.org/20130303070635.GA12112%40panahar > [2] my citation links often look like postnote;prenote without > showing the BIBTEX-KEY or citation format. > [2] here http://mid.gmane.org/87lia0s7wi.fsf%40bzg.ath.cx > and here http://mid.gmane.org/87wqthk7vj.fsf%40gmail.com. > > > -- > When in doubt, do it! > > > --001a11c1b73a99386e04eef84eda Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Rasmus, hi the list,

Reading this th= read I've understood that the question of html export of biblatex citat= ions is still an open problem for org-mode developers, right ?=C2=A0
<= div>
Thanks to the online manual and the help of the list, I have= succeeded to write a template of koma-article class which is correctly exp= orted both in latex and in html. But I meet the problem of exporting =C2=A0= into html footnotes and references.=C2=A0

At the moment, what is the best i.e. the more convenien= t solution?=C2=A0

My best wishes for this new year= ,

Jo. =C2=A0


2013/5/21 Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
Hi,

Now that 8.0 has shipped let's talk bibliography support. =C2=A0This follows directly upon the discussion around March[1].

The essence of the thread was that some people agreed that it would be
nice to have support for citation commands build into Org (I'll
summarize in the next post). =C2=A0But let me first restate my own take on<= br> the issue. =C2=A0IMO a nice format would be:

(*) =C2=A0 [KEYWORD PROPERTIES]

I think we should allow for a more general approach than one just for
citation and this is a good thing (IMO).

The in-buffer display of (*) could be governed by
org-buffer-format-KEYWORD (similar to
gnus-user-format-function-LETTER) or just identity if no function is
defined. =C2=A0Export could be handled by org-BACKEND-KEYWORD or
org-export-KEYWORD. =C2=A0With officially recognized KEYWORDs something
like citation could be a 'first-class citizen'. =C2=A0PROPERTIES co= uld be a
string like:

=C2=A0 optional-keyless-entry :prop1 one :prop2 two ...

Perhaps, treatment of keyword, could even be handled by an
in-buffer Org Babel function in the spirit of e.g. reproducible
research (see below).

This would be different from Org links in that (*) is more like a
functions that allows for (i) pretty and informative display in
buffer/export and (ii) easy user extension.

I think there are many compelling use-cases for such a framework.

1. Citation: Take the keyword citetext which should be an 'official'= ;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0KEYWORD. =C2=A0So for instance we could have

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[citetext BIBTEX-KEY :prenote note, w/comma :postnote b= lah].

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In buffers, via org-in-buffer-format-citetext, it would be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0displayed as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIBTEX-KEY (note, w/comma, YEAR, blah)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0or something similar (depending to what extend bibtex.el would= be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0leveraged; e.g. BIBTEX-KEY might show the author/editor key an= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0YEAR would also depend on parsing a bibtex file) (obviouesly,<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0there's some reference to a bibtex file somewhere). =C2=A0= In LaTeX it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0would be exported as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\citetext[note,w/comma][blah]{BIBTEX-KEY}

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In html it might utilize some tool that understand bibtex (the= re's
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a link to such a tool in the next post). =C2=A0In ASCII it cou= ld almost
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use what would be displayed in the buffer.

2. MY-FUN: MY-FUN is some function that does something with some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0properties, perhaps just a string (simple cases: [sc text] is = used
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for small caps, or mayhaps [my-treat-dna-string DNA-STRING]). = =C2=A0I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0might use it in a single file that I want to send to people or= I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0might just use it in my notes. =C2=A0Currently it's implem= ented via
=C2=A0 =C2=A0org-emphasis-alist or as a link. =C2=A0Changing emphases is a = hacks, and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0they are hard to export with the now more robust Org syntax an= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0further permit little control over how they are displayed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in-buffer. =C2=A0Links are more flexible but lacks display con= trol and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0becomes somewhat painful with many arguments[2]. =C2=A0Also, M= Y-FUN
=C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn't take a 'description'. =C2=A0With (*) I cou= ld simply write

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[MY-FUN PROPERTIES].

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Perhaps, I could even define org-BACKEND-MY-FUN in a babel blo= ck
=C2=A0 =C2=A0if it's only relevant to the current file.

There's been some work and some discussion on this already, most
notably Aaron already supplied some patches towards this end[3],
but using a slightly different syntax more like the link syntax;
e.g. textcite above would look like

=C2=A0 [[textcite:bibtex-key&&pre%3Dfoo&&post%3Dbar][whatev= er]]

where whatever is ignored. =C2=A0The state of the discussion is to some
extend summarized in the next post.

It would love to hear whether other people find something like this to
be a good idea? =C2=A0Would anyone find a use such a framework? =C2=A0Would= (*)
conflict with anyone's current usage of Org? =C2=A0Is (*) too ambitious= and
in terms of getting citation support? =C2=A0Is this is taking a musket to kill a butterfly? =C2=A0What are the the flaws in the above.

I'm not a good (lisp) programmer, but I think I have a month off this summer where I could work on something like the above.

Thanks for reading,
Rasmus

Footnotes:
[1] http://mid.gmane.org/20130303070635.GA12112%40panahar
[2] my citation links often look like postnote;prenote without
showing the BIBTEX-KEY or citation format.
[2] here http://mid.gmane.org/87lia0s7wi.fsf%40bzg.ath.cx
and here http://mid.gmane.org/87wqthk7vj.fsf%40gmail.com.


--
When in doubt, do it!



--001a11c1b73a99386e04eef84eda--