From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: "Kyeong Soo (Joseph) Kim" Subject: Re: Changed behaviours of LaTeX exporter in version 8.0+ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 23:32:03 +0800 Message-ID: References: <87lhpg3o60.fsf@berkeley.edu> <8738bn391c.fsf@berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfe9b0a608ba8050380eb85 Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58569) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XVMdv-0005cg-Dy for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 11:32:13 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XVMdt-0006u9-ME for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 11:32:11 -0400 Received: from mail-qc0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c]:42766) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XVMdt-0006sg-GK for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 11:32:09 -0400 Received: by mail-qc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id x13so4617188qcv.3 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 08:32:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8738bn391c.fsf@berkeley.edu> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Richard Lawrence Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org --047d7bfe9b0a608ba8050380eb85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Richard, I do really appreciate your taking time to further explain the use of CUSTOM_ID. Now I can understand why this CUSTOM_ID-based solution is better and, in some cases as in your example, needed. With version 7.x, what I did was to reference sections in main texts (not in embedded LaTeX blocks) using 'C-c l' on a sections header and 'C-c C-l' in a part referring to it (i.e., no manual setting & typing involved). Fortunately, for most journal & conference papers in my area (i.e., up to ~15 pages), there is virtually no chance that more than one sections have the same title at the same level; note that "*Numerical Examples" and "**Numerical Examples" are different. This may be the case for a thesis as well, much longer though. Except for the said case of embedded LaTeX blocks, therefore, the use of CUSTOM_ID with manual labelling is something I want to avoid if possible. By the way, as said, [[*Foo][Section Foo]] does not produce the link in LaTeX export any longer; version 8.x generates just "\texttt{Section Foo}" unlike version 7.x. But I do agree that new export engines are more flexible and powerful (e.g., filters) and will see whether and how all these compatibility issues will be addressed; otherwise, I would have to update tens of papers based on version 7.x org-mode, which is my major platform/format for academic publications and teaching materials. Again, many thanks for your sharing valuable experience and great insight on these! Joseph On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Richard Lawrence < richard.lawrence@berkeley.edu> wrote: > Hi Joseph, > > "Kyeong Soo (Joseph) Kim" writes: > > > Great thanks for your answering my two questions, especially sharing your > > experience for cross-referencing in LaTeX export. > > > > Though your suggestion for cross-referencing is an excellent workaround, > I > > wonder whether there is any benefit using org-mode in writing papers in > > this case; for instance, manual setting of CUSTOM_ID would be a hassle, > > considering that it can be easily & automatically done in LaTeX with > > AUCTeX/RefTeX's label function. > > Don't you need to make sure that your sections have a consistent label > in order to refer to them? > > At any rate, one of the reasons I use this solution is that I want to be > able to easily use plain LaTeX at points where I discover that I can't > make Org do everything I want. One of the cases I was worried about, > for example, is having a section reference inside an embedded LaTeX > block. If you don't know the label ahead of time, you can't use a raw > \ref command inside #+BEGIN_LATEX...#+END_LATEX. So I like being able > to set the labels via CUSTOM_ID on an as-needed basis. (I don't do it > for every section.) > > You might be able to get away with less; it looks to me like the > [[*Foo][Section Foo]] still produces a link to a headline in LaTeX > output. Does that not work for you? > > > I still don't know why the new export engine has brought so many > > compatibility issues in its behavior. It seems that I'd better go > > back to the prior version (7.X) in order to focus on my research. > > The new export engine was a complete re-write, and came with an attempt > to define and standardize Org syntax. Some of the incompatibilities are > due to that standardization: the old LaTeX and HTML exporters might > treat some text differently, for example, or not deal with some corner > case, so in writing a new export engine, it was necessary to define the > correct behavior. Other incompatibilities are just bugs that come with > any new piece of software; the exporter is under heavy development and > those are constantly getting fixed. > > The new exporter really is a *lot* better, and in my experience it is > worth the effort to upgrade. I found myself bumping into the > limitations of the pre-8.0 exporter very frequently. If you don't, you > can wait, but I think you'll find the new exporter a lot easier to work > with and to get help with. > > Best, > Richard > > OpenPGP Key ID: CF6FA646 > Fingerprint: 9969 43E1 CF6F A646 > > (See http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~rwl/encryption.html for more > information.) > --047d7bfe9b0a608ba8050380eb85 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Richard,

I do really appreciate yo= ur taking time to further explain the use of CUSTOM_ID.

Now I can understand why = this CUSTOM_ID-based solution is better and, in some cases as in your examp= le, needed.

With version 7.x, what I did was to reference sections in main texts = (not in embedded LaTeX blocks) using 'C-c l' on a sections header a= nd 'C-c C-l' in a part referring to it (i.e., no manual setting &am= p; typing involved).

Fortunately, for most journal & conference papers in m= y area (i.e., up to ~15 pages), there is virtually no chance that more than= one sections have the same title at the same level; note that "*Numer= ical Examples" and "**Numerical Examples" are different. Thi= s may be the case for a thesis as well, much longer though.

Except for the said c= ase of embedded LaTeX blocks, therefore, the use of CUSTOM_ID with manual l= abelling is something I want to avoid if possible.

By the way, as said, [[*Foo][S= ection Foo]] does not produce the link in LaTeX export any longer; version = 8.x generates just "\texttt{Section Foo}" unlike version 7.x.

But I do = agree that new export engines are more flexible and powerful (e.g., filters= ) and will see whether and how all these compatibility issues will be addre= ssed; otherwise, I would have to update tens of papers based on version 7.x= org-mode, which is my major platform/format for academic publications and = teaching materials.

Again, many thanks for your sharing valuable experience and g= reat insight on these!
Joseph=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Richard La= wrence <richard.lawrence@berkeley.edu> wrote:
Hi Joseph,

"Kyeong Soo (Joseph) Kim" <kyeongsoo.kim@gmail.com> writes:

> Great thanks for your answering my two questio= ns, especially sharing your
> experience for cross-referencing in LaTeX export.
>
> Though your suggestion for cross-referencing is an excellent workaroun= d, I
> wonder whether there is any benefit using org-mode in writing papers i= n
> this case; for instance, manual setting of CUSTOM_ID would be a hassle= ,
> considering that it can be easily & automatically done in LaTeX wi= th
> AUCTeX/RefTeX's label function.

Don't you need to make sure that your sections have a consistent= label
in order to refer to them?

At any rate, one of the reasons I use this solution is that I want to be able to easily use plain LaTeX at points where I discover that I can't<= br> make Org do everything I want.=C2=A0 One of the cases I was worried about,<= br> for example, is having a section reference inside an embedded LaTeX
block.=C2=A0 If you don't know the label ahead of time, you can't u= se a raw
\ref command inside #+BEGIN_LATEX...#+END_LATEX.=C2=A0 So I like being able=
to set the labels via CUSTOM_ID on an as-needed basis. (I don't do it for every section.)

You might be able to get away with less; it looks to me like the
[[*Foo][Section Foo]] still produces a link to a headline in LaTeX
output.=C2=A0 Does that not work for you?

> I still don't know why the new export engine has brought so many > compatibility issues in its behavior.=C2=A0 It seems that I'd bett= er go
> back to the prior version (7.X) in order to focus on my research.

The new export engine was a complete re-write, and came with an atte= mpt
to define and standardize Org syntax.=C2=A0 Some of the incompatibilities a= re
due to that standardization: the old LaTeX and HTML exporters might
treat some text differently, for example, or not deal with some corner
case, so in writing a new export engine, it was necessary to define the
correct behavior.=C2=A0 Other incompatibilities are just bugs that come wit= h
any new piece of software; the exporter is under heavy development and
those are constantly getting fixed.

The new exporter really is a *lot* better, and in my experience it is
worth the effort to upgrade.=C2=A0 I found myself bumping into the
limitations of the pre-8.0 exporter very frequently.=C2=A0 If you don't= , you
can wait, but I think you'll find the new exporter a lot easier to work=
with and to get help with.

Best,
Richard

OpenPGP Key ID: CF6FA646
Fingerprint: 9969 43E1 CF6F A646

(See http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~rwl/encryption.html for more info= rmation.)

--047d7bfe9b0a608ba8050380eb85--