From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gustav_Wikstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: [OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:43:19 +0200 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f2343dddec53a04bd8b76c0 Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38575) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SIc6K-0001Uc-6S for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Apr 2012 04:43:34 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SIc6E-00026H-9B for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Apr 2012 04:43:27 -0400 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:39303) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SIc6D-00025x-Vv for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Apr 2012 04:43:22 -0400 Received: by iajr24 with SMTP id r24so4835198iaj.0 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:43:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Marcelo de Moraes Serpa Cc: Org Mode --e89a8f2343dddec53a04bd8b76c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thinking normally is, until you reason it out. =) (And that's a process!) I wanted to write something about your mail but didn't find anything of relevance in my mind (In my system, to share your terminology ;) ). Please share your insights afterwards! /Gustav On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa < celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid and or confusing... > > Anyway, I started reading "An Introduction To General Systems Thinking" - > surprisingly interesting book, and it's helping me answer most of those > questions in deeper ways. I needed to do some additional investigation > before starting to ask questions ;) > > I'll share the insights after I finish it, > > Thanks! > > Marcelo. > > > On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa < > celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> >> I know there are quite a few smart brains around here, and I think this >> is valid discussion for this mailing list, even if OT. >> >> I'm not a cientist, nor work inside an academic environment. I'm just a >> regular guy trying to understand this world and making better use of my >> resources, specially time. For this, I have read dozens of books on >> personal productivity, including GTD, Making it All Work, and Work the >> System. All great books. >> >> I've started to notice a pattern though. All of them talk about systems >> and processes (and some might even use the word framework and methodology / >> or method), and although you can live by and be quite productivity if you >> apply the principles, I knew I had to understand in an even lower and basic >> level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a system" and what is the >> relationship it has with "process", "methodology" and "frameworks" ? >> >> I found out, for example, that "System" and "Process" sometimes are used >> inter-changeably. So I went to google to try to find out the answer. The >> simplest answers simply say that "a process is what a system is made of". >> It did not convince me. >> >> By reading the wikipedia article about System ( >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System), I found out this paragraph under >> "System concepts": >> >> Process and transformation process >>> A system can also be viewed as a bounded transformation process, that >>> is, a process or collection of processes that transforms inputs into >>> outputs. Inputs are consumed; outputs are produced. The concept of input >>> and output here is very broad. E.g., an output of a passenger ship is the >>> movement of people from departure to destination. >> >> >> A system can viewed as a process? Hmm, confusing. >> >> Right now, my mental model basically says that a "system" is like >> blueprint with different components that communicate, and a process is what >> runs on it (or in on of its components). "Framework" is like a collection >> of systems and a "methodology" is basically akin to system (in my >> understanding). >> >> Why am I obsessing about this? >> >> The reason is systems thinking. I think it's a quite interesting mindset >> and way to perceive the world. By trying to view yourself and what >> surrounds you as systems (with sub-systems), it's much easier to document >> (them), get feedback, and improve, automating your life even further, >> understanding it more, and living better. >> >> For example, from this perspective I think, GTD is simply a product of an >> elevated point of view from the author David Allen. He simply viewed things >> systematically and documented them. That's why he says it's 'common-sense'. >> >> But before that, it would be nice to know exactly what a System is, and >> it's relationship with "process", "methodology" and "framework", in >> abstract terms. >> >> What do you think? I'm sure there are quite a few people here that might >> be crazy enough to have the same question, or perhaps, I'm just too crazy. >> Let me know, any insights very much appreciated. >> >> Cheers, >> >> - Marcelo. >> >> > --e89a8f2343dddec53a04bd8b76c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thinking normally is, until you re= ason it out. =3D) (And that's a process!)

I wanted t= o write something about your mail but didn't find anything of relevance= in my mind (In my system, to share your terminology ;) ).

Please share your insights afterwards!

/Gustav

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at = 6:59 AM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid = and or confusing...=A0

Anyway, I started reading "An Intr= oduction To General Systems Thinking" - surprisingly interesting book,= and it's helping me answer most of those questions in deeper ways. I n= eeded to do some=A0additional=A0investigation before starting to ask questi= ons ;)

I'll share the insights after I finish it,

Thanks!

Marcelo.


On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 a= t 9:24 PM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> w= rote:
Hi guys,

I know there are= quite a few smart brains around here, and I think this is valid discussion= for this mailing list, even if OT.

I'm not a cientist, nor work inside an academic env= ironment. I'm just a regular guy trying to understand this world and ma= king better use of my resources, specially time. For this, I have read doze= ns of books on personal productivity, including GTD, Making it All Work, an= d Work the System. All great books.=A0

I've started to notice a pattern though. All of the= m talk about systems and processes (and some might even use the word framew= ork and methodology / or method), and although you can live by and be quite= productivity if you apply the principles, I knew I had to understand in an= even lower and basic level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a s= ystem" and what is the relationship it has with "process", &= quot;methodology" and "frameworks" ?

I found out, for example, that "System" and &= quot;Process" sometimes are used inter-changeably. So I went to google= to try to find out the answer. The simplest answers simply say that "= a process is what a system is made of". It did not convince me.

By reading the wikipedia article about System (http://en.wikipe= dia.org/wiki/System), I found out this paragraph under "System con= cepts":

Process and transformation process
A system can also be viewed as a boun= ded transformation process, that is, a process or collection of processes t= hat transforms inputs into outputs. Inputs are consumed; outputs are produc= ed. The concept of input and output here is very broad. E.g., an output of = a passenger ship is the movement of people from departure to destination.

A system can viewed as a process? Hmm, confusing.=

Right now, my mental model basically says that a = "system" is like blueprint with different components that=A0commu= nicate, and a process is what runs on it (or in on of its components). &quo= t;Framework" is like a collection of systems and a "methodology&q= uot; is basically akin to system (in my understanding).

Why am I obsessing about this?

The reason is systems thinking. I think it's a quite interesting minds= et and way to perceive the world. By trying to view yourself and what surro= unds you as systems (with sub-systems), it's much easier to document (t= hem), get feedback, and improve, automating your life even further, underst= anding it more, and living better.

For example, from this perspective I think, GTD is simp= ly a product of an elevated point of view from the author David Allen. He s= imply viewed things systematically and documented them. That's why he s= ays it's 'common-sense'.

But before that, it would be nice to know exactly what = a System is, and it's relationship with "process", "meth= odology" and "framework", in abstract terms.

=A0What do you think? I'm sure there are quite a few people = here that might be crazy enough to have the same question, or perhaps, I= 9;m just too crazy. Let me know, any insights very much appreciated.

Cheers,

- Marcelo.
<= div>


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