From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4ETwCHPmQWMyMQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 23:06:59 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id +HDoCHPmQWO+IwAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 23:06:59 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8B08EF9 for ; Sat, 8 Oct 2022 23:06:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48190 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohH27-0001l1-Mk for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 17:06:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58458) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohH1G-0001kr-Cz for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 17:06:02 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43858) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohH1G-0008AT-1e for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 17:06:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=To:Subject:Date:From:In-Reply-To:References: MIME-Version; bh=9EEiEmhGhZm/Sg9IyTRALZawUdR91HxnDa5cRXWj3PM=; b=luBD6wHLYRgL gg3DCquSNokzDaU0FEzquZCfiwpLo2xQaYxR+hmgDKIdhaOs4rx9YQI0RzwH2z/bgE3JjxqHS4GWN 2pZ0/EFiU2Yc/zE8T6AS+IYYCEQpE9fNa4nzSfgRmNxEohP8oZy793z+tKlRgdwvbben4KRoRhoaY B6so53glwODxoF5A8mpEByEM6SOciO9cqHjkWhemi7OEf+QBZHFbSgnejmxg10pGDkXNDHJEXAy2j 2slPuZ4FpPiEUsdIRvK5ML2TrnNCRI8LlQh0P7W6q35MU52I9xf1MoUoRc1dM48fA2HK6hzgB8PNC ODWxqk6xTmpg3y9SCSsb4A==; Received: from mail-vs1-f42.google.com ([209.85.217.42]:43549) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohH1F-0005l6-It for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 17:06:01 -0400 Received: by mail-vs1-f42.google.com with SMTP id 126so8050335vsi.10 for ; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 14:06:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf14MGXZGrPSzhe9tRoUKDwjZ5pHmcX1IA0Gj+kdmGQx3Vtdyxwi 0x5VjhpYeVDfVB7DVlx5ozMG4WPhuO+TloPtYEg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4EJyKQov4ukv7FSG9GOoCmFUYejNoYwhybeKxk6SSagA4siBcB8hC9PB8xxDRKGA1C04ptHWAFi1iqngFg+Vg= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fd91:0:b0:3a6:d228:b348 with SMTP id k17-20020a67fd91000000b003a6d228b348mr6268556vsq.35.1665263160993; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 14:06:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <813D3F10-3E3C-497F-9FD8-FE0DA13C2970@gmail.com> <10960EC2-D614-4826-A277-79E963969345@gnu.support> In-Reply-To: <10960EC2-D614-4826-A277-79E963969345@gnu.support> From: Robert Weiner Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2022 17:05:34 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Org and Hyperbole To: Jean Louis Cc: David Masterson , Samuel Wales , emacs-org list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b2c0505ea8c4b6a" X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rswgnu@gmail.com Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1665263217; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=9EEiEmhGhZm/Sg9IyTRALZawUdR91HxnDa5cRXWj3PM=; b=IN4TtngQQ42yDbGXj8KjSXu96zfjP4vcaS9SEzI5K2i0zlQt9Pv2aIbs/MIyBCS4Z8AQxD ph69xJkHa7qQJwsFRCz9RPTRR7JXye84/VELZ46ZBaytaHEbfYSDR/bpNfhvSUchzZDS75 F6w+iOK6wW9J/bKC2OLZGFG5mXt9E0XONvUd2KPDDmEZMnj3yvbKY9F/OrFvI1y0RQToFA jh0P6FkaAPqXWN4S5ujeYYrQy4nxLm0RNDd2E6+4z20Bs039b+SvlfVhyGyBdTnYV47EJE +uZtOQlUwXSVglPUBtNX5LuljFpYnHbADrR9YipD5KoV51yozJf7bv/LE8o5kw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1665263217; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Uk+FUxfuPUA22Q9EnWQezj+MNP7mBG4H8v8AMlFPTsSo4AW+9rsMvQu8UukzPUku7vZmmT JwkWcEq+BG4aVj20AIWXzMUCKGn02DT4+t4UbhGA7fjK6sTcirdKGvVtN1FC98pjS/YvjN IgSVfGlvlpp64X9kiQ3qWRyHB8YbloQS+ogWhWpAEUH+HvTK3F/WGmUBNx2AraMvpWraKr Y6V+b4zLtPjd5Zz3VfaN/wlgpynXK0KdpeVY+T8YhDLB0ugAf6eVuhP7DNAP0suqk597Fn Xyq2S1qoaxMj1FYoM2d7QKT0H3xOLeVWoZhA+RKa5sE2KCfT4mB9LSc4Oezvtw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=luBD6wHL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.68 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=luBD6wHL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 8C8B08EF9 X-Spam-Score: -5.68 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: CKNeHwU0cHM9 --0000000000002b2c0505ea8c4b6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We had object-based, multi-media files with Engelbart's NLS/Augment system. We had relational databases way before the web. But here we are in 2022 with enormous personal computing power and for interactive editing, everyone is using and transferring stream-based files of characters that are then interpreted at the delivery site. There are many reasons for this including limits in many organizations of the file types that may be transferred through common protocols and the difficulty of maintaining relational database or structured file type schemas across time. Simple tends to win out over more powerful because few people want to bear the cost of continual training to raise all of the newcomers to a level of performance that they cannot teach themselves. I like your model, Jean, and am a fan of such things but I am also pragmatic and thus focus on building things that I think people will consume within a given environment. In Hyperbole's case, it is base Emacs and nothing more. If you are familiar with what it takes to standup a scalable web application today (what everyone wants), you understand why that is not a great model for systems where the users have to manage and customize the infrastructure themselves. -- rsw On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 3:52 PM Jean Louis wrote: > On October 4, 2022 6:05:58 PM UTC, David Masterson > >One major use-case for Org is capturing a task quickly. This can be > >done with Org or Mobile-Org (BeOrg, Orgzly). One feature not easily > >available is attaching images to the task to better explain the task. > > > >Thoughts on this? > > There are many ways of capturing elementary objects. Org Capture is one > way as it's connection between Emacs and outside programs or Emacs and > Emacs. > > With or without Org or Emacs computer users should be able to capture any > pieces of information and it's references in any type of a system. > > For me personally I use PostgreSQL database and have finely grained types > of objects, so I can relate anything to anything, then export to Org or > package with any kind of connected objects, not only Org. > > The way to go for Org users is to make a function that first takes > specific files and then captures the rest. Then files are to be used as > properties or links in subheading. > > That is what I don't like as too many properties and markup is really > disturbing. I keep it invisible. > > Design of such system shall be that each elementary object has our get > it's really unique reference, possibly across networks and world, then that > it gets it's type of relation, and it's value such as file. The file is > object too, must have it's references. > > Relation could be just RELATED, but it could be, CONTRACT or DISREGARD, as > one shall know why are some other objects attached. > > Relating objects is most important in information management. > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_database > > What you and many others really want is relational database. I see no > problem to connect Org to such. You can have just one property like ID or > embedded not presentable link and all other properties related through one, > by principles of the relational database. > > I often use preprocessing markup tags that interpolate to anything, like > Org markup or any other. That way I can add just anything to Org or any > other text. Like bunch of files or links, without using specific mode. > > Feature I use mostly to inject single objects into bunch of files, even > thousands of files. When I edit such single object, other files > automatically interpolate the contents of such object. > > Imagine company address appearing on thousands of related pages and over > different domains, editing phone number changes it anywhere. > > Imagine that link name changes each in na while like those links showing > specific but dynamic market price, when price is changed all documents get > the new link name without files being edited or modified. > > When you have single object ID then adding files to it can be handled > outside the single Org file. Imagine an Org ID as universal hyperlink to > other objects. Let us say, properties in other file like "attachment" and > list of files in that other file. > > It is up to Org designers to better adopt the idea of decentralization of > properties, tags, etc. One can't put all the messy looking stuff in text > file, it's not text any more, it looks like garbage on the screen. > > Moving more to the extreme then anything can be separated from Org and > written in plethora of other modes, markups and then presented in the Org > simple way for clarity and better understanding to final user. > > > > Jean > --0000000000002b2c0505ea8c4b6a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We had object-based, multi-media files with Engelbart's NL= S/Augment system.=C2=A0 We had relational databases way before the web.
But here we are in 2022 with enormous personal computing power and for = interactive editing, everyone is using and transferring stream-based files = of characters that are then interpreted at the delivery site.=C2=A0 There a= re many reasons for this including limits in many organizations of the file= types that may be transferred through common protocols and the difficulty = of maintaining relational database or structured file type schemas across t= ime.

Simple tends to win out over more powerful because few people w= ant to bear the cost of continual training to raise all of the newcomers to= a level of performance that they cannot teach themselves.

I like y= our model, Jean, and am a fan of such things but I am also pragmatic and th= us focus on building things that I think people will consume within a given= environment.=C2=A0 In Hyperbole's=C2=A0case, it is base Emacs and noth= ing more.=C2=A0 If you are familiar with what it takes to standup=C2=A0a sc= alable web application today (what everyone wants), you understand why that= is not a great model for systems where the users have to manage and custom= ize the infrastructure themselves.

-- rsw

On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 = at 3:52 PM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
On October 4, 2022 6:05:58 PM UTC, Da= vid Masterson
>One major use-case for Org is capturing a task quickly.=C2=A0 This can = be
>done with Org or Mobile-Org (BeOrg, Orgzly).=C2=A0 One feature not easi= ly
>available is attaching images to the task to better explain the task. >
>Thoughts on this?

There are many ways of capturing elementary objects. Org Capture is one way= as it's connection between Emacs and outside programs or Emacs and Ema= cs.

With or without Org or Emacs computer users should be able to capture any p= ieces of information and it's references in any type of a system.

For me personally I use PostgreSQL database and have finely grained types o= f objects, so I can relate anything to anything, then export to Org or pack= age with any kind of connected objects, not only Org.

The way to go for Org users is to make a function that first takes specific= files and then captures the rest. Then files are to be used as properties = or links in subheading.

That is what I don't like as too many properties and markup is really d= isturbing. I keep it invisible.

Design of such system shall be that each elementary object has our get it&#= 39;s really unique reference, possibly across networks and world, then that= it gets it's type of relation, and it's value such as file. The fi= le is object too, must have it's references.

Relation could be just RELATED, but it could be, CONTRACT or DISREGARD, as = one shall know why are some other objects attached.

Relating objects is most important in information management.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_databa= se

What you and many others really want is relational database. I see no probl= em to connect Org to such. You can have just one property like ID or embedd= ed not presentable link and all other properties related through one, by pr= inciples of the relational database.

I often use preprocessing markup tags that interpolate to anything, like Or= g markup or any other. That way I can add just anything to Org or any other= text. Like bunch of files or links, without using specific mode.

Feature I use mostly to inject single objects into bunch of files, even tho= usands of files. When I edit such single object, other files automatically = interpolate the contents of such object.

Imagine company address appearing on thousands of related pages and over di= fferent domains, editing phone number changes it anywhere.

Imagine that link name changes each in na while like those links showing sp= ecific but dynamic market price, when price is changed all documents get th= e new link name without files being edited or modified.

When you have single object ID then adding files to it can be handled outsi= de the single Org file. Imagine an Org ID as universal hyperlink to other o= bjects. Let us say, properties in other file like "attachment" an= d list of files in that other file.

It is up to Org designers to better adopt the idea of decentralization of p= roperties, tags, etc. One can't put all the messy looking stuff in text= file, it's not text any more, it looks like garbage on the screen.

Moving more to the extreme then anything can be separated from Org and writ= ten in plethora of other modes, markups and then presented in the Org simpl= e way for clarity and better understanding to final user.



Jean
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