From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id QP7oI801tmJeTgEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2022 00:08:13 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id sJPUI801tmL5DAAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2022 00:08:13 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06246395A1 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2022 00:08:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36992 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o4rTI-0003sb-27 for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2022 18:08:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39270) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o4rST-0003sC-0A for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2022 18:07:21 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43688) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o4rSS-0001yJ-5G for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2022 18:07:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=To:Subject:Date:From:In-Reply-To:References: MIME-Version; bh=qz8cIBgQykxuhoNzZDyzUxc77nAPxEdqTHGK/hXa/eY=; b=ngsQicUv0kFI 9een13TOQFsGhDBWYeKYNx5hHIbi4pfqr2/Ml9SXv5LULQauK1S4HHMa5E5I8mWsU1gaWQ2HBb3AZ Efg5okdr/NAcgVHAqerAbozI6QVtkJWu8eOk4lWjI8kp5/WnRb1GiK2vrC7JMqWh7e65tjnAJOxhT XK440WmEM0iemJz97e+Sraug2bBY2YAV1vulPHfK9iY7gJ3A9WKNgjqXTp3YWfAd1QOt6evpXvDFO 04ahexqoLtFZLcDxTJXl07747LQjgHWsMGrv3h4Wi4UH1Gf0PP9/c1SCnH/qPpmbt8uYWZ9fus/vy H4fzHkYR+vWkkPoMnoTa2g==; Received: from mail-yw1-f173.google.com ([209.85.128.173]:44600) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o4rSR-000674-1a for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2022 18:07:19 -0400 Received: by mail-yw1-f173.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-3176b6ed923so36909767b3.11 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2022 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+OhqZPecoW8jGmaep+MCQN/BAQcu1h/65On22l0rKisEZ4NcE8 uXNRz+1AiDzKnpsBmxR+zym4a/K6PQkt8xCXj88= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1v4LdE2VQkKrIQ/WOxbVgGzDJo2WczMnDfZ4O9QHN+o1Z7t6P2rgr+RX5Cze+IO4KNQVQZD/kwAxootTnCvUBM= X-Received: by 2002:a81:57d7:0:b0:317:b111:34d5 with SMTP id l206-20020a8157d7000000b00317b11134d5mr1231093ywb.7.1656108438382; Fri, 24 Jun 2022 15:07:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87k096b240.fsf@posteo.net> In-Reply-To: <87k096b240.fsf@posteo.net> From: Robert Weiner Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 18:06:52 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Org and Hyperbole To: =?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Manuel_Mac=C3=ADas?= Cc: orgmode Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002deffb05e238cb30" X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rswgnu@gmail.com Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1656108493; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=qz8cIBgQykxuhoNzZDyzUxc77nAPxEdqTHGK/hXa/eY=; b=REXLgm6TuBWGRNdElUuiOGQdVS4f7WUgmcPV/WGT6nfKfDTo0tD2a0uU3U8BUiqdO04p1p bvYpM6krac4q6pMyqSYWK1bFoEjS33hsjouZXL1ulSKJn8HKVU/z8gDwkkEKRMkkl9mioe O79IBcz3aRWP/TYDG0KrUznsWCtlttMYhkFOijLbcOzdy3NxmaN00mlTHuyrSI2aL4Rxvg wo19Dulc8+TsuuiUbxxwy8dss3Mx860WGK4lnkcLHzl55pPjrNHgeg1vcO1rCw6g1awK+w +vlv0F3/E4jKbNvcq8L4g+pGfhZpgyHDjjYbSUI0PMhz2T9NWmsjrBHL5WXpNw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1656108493; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=afNwozRxhJo1INrWmadJhbiYIl3d2OyliTRq172mdTw+ybVxhSVVbrc3ojCDeVnkpVQKAw +tm9RCGeCzygmovc3dxFSlkmdAhExCtnQOTmI5nTMyg9+3UZl5RDBzS9WRMfpoIkN8hduN NJxv6VraPb6/HNdjnJkI0B4DPaoAII4QZV8MjkfYxAQO0Qr0lToZpvzXlISD0n/8lWEh5+ RZMO6EPo7dZDl8CQTZCoYupCQzrbe/V2XDQFnNLFs2X1VQJmfOLeS7AkhQssOVyGgcwaMF g0exarBY7oyYaAGym3uOKhnAuHEVzN0nQMVB0EEwvgzv/Sqv3HXRG78tiV5z8w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=ngsQicUv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.06 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=ngsQicUv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 06246395A1 X-Spam-Score: -9.06 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: exmnh9gRsrNB --0000000000002deffb05e238cb30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Juan: Thanks for the positive thoughts on Hyperbole. I must say everyone here has a great attitude and writes thoughtfully from what I have seen. It seems like you are off to a good start utilizing core features as you get familiar with them and then adding on across time. We do like avy and as you say, Hyperbole can work with it. We try to avoid requiring any non-builtin Emacs packages for Hyperbole. With a few, we support them optionally. Unless there is a strong use case for utilizing avy in certain ways, we would tend to leave that to others to extend Hyperbole but personally I just add it in and use its character and line navigation sometimes. Did you have any particular uses in mind? -- rsw On Fri, Jun 24, 2022 at 9:52 AM Juan Manuel Mac=C3=ADas wrote: > Hi, Robert, > > First of all, welcome to the list. And of course congratulations on all > the great work you've done with hyperbole. In my ignorance, when I > recently installed it from ELPA, I thought it was a relatively recent > package. But it seems that you have been developing it for a long time, > while adapting it to the latest GNU Emacs trends. This is fortunate, > because what is new is combined with experience and the residue of work > already done over the years. > > At the moment I am not going to comment here anything specific on the > technical level, because I have been using hyperbole for a short time > and my knowledge of this package is still very limited. I think the best > strategy for using hyperbole, from a user's point of view, is to simply > use it. And gradually discover which parts of hyperbole can be useful > and integrate into one's workflow. This is more practical than trying to > start from a global conceptual base (IMHO). I'm still having trouble > explaining what Org is for and what Org really is :-). But this is also > the case with Emacs itself. When I first started using Emacs I thought > it was just a text editor, like any other text editor. In fact, on my > first day with Emacs I hated it dearly and uninstalled it in a rage. Now > it's my desktop environment and my work environment, with EXWM, with > Org, among others, and hopefully with Hyperbole as well. I suppose that > it is the daily use that is making us connect the dots... > > I really like the implicit link system, and it is really easy to define > new links. I have already defined a set of new buttons for LaTeX, which > recognize commands and environments and point to the local TeX live > documentation or texstackexchange.com. And with avy they work great. > Have you thought about giving a support for avy? In any case it is easy > to add a new avy action to avy-dispatch-alist. > > Best regards, > > Juan Manuel > > Robert Weiner writes: > > > Hi: > > > > Thanks to Juan for starting this thread and the interesting > > conversation it has started. I just joined this mail list, so I don't > > have the prior messages and can't reply to the thread, so I have > > started this new one. > > > > I am the author of Hyperbole and would be happy to answer questions > > concerning Hyperbole today (so you don't have to answer based on > > experience from the 1990s). Hyperbole has been modernized for use > > with Org mode and Emacs 28 and continues to develop. There are videos > > that demonstrate some of its features in simple, understandable ways. > > Hyperbole is a single Emacs package that can be installed and > > uninstalled quickly for testing. It is largely a global minor mode, > > so you can also disable it quickly if you ever care to. In 20 minutes > > you can get through the builtin, interactive demo and be on your way > > to basic yet powerful usage. We have listened to much feedback in the > > last few years and made it much more approachable. > > > > I find most of the confusion is people trying to understand how > > Hyperbole works under the covers rather than just following the > > tutorial and exploring it. Hyperbole can be hacked on if you are a > > moderate to advanced programmer but it is meant to be used, like Org > > mode. Hyperbole recognizes many, many common contexts in buffers that > > could serve as hyperlinks (paths, URLs, multiple key sequences, mail > > addresses, and on and on) and performs the typically desired action > > when you press its Action Key {M-RET} on these 'implicit buttons'. > > You get all this for free with no effort on your part. Then if you > > want to extend such behavior, as you have seen a bit of, you can > > define your own implicit button and action types once and then > > activate an infinite number of matching implicit buttons. For > > example, in an Emacs shell buffer, type: > > > > echo $PATH > > > > then press the {M-RET} key or Shift-Middle mouse button on any path > > there and jump right to it. I find that very useful as a simple > > example. People are often surprised at how many things simply work > > right out of the box because such broad context-sensitive behavior is > > difficult to develop and rarely seen. Just try it out and you should > > find some contexts that you can leverage rapidly. {C-h A} displays > > what Hyperbole's Action Key will do in any context so you can always > > check and learn before activating anything. We say: Hyperbole brings > > your text to life. Like Org and Emacs, it provides an extensive > > environment that you can grow into across time, getting ever more > > productive rather than hitting a ceiling as with most point > > packages/tools. > > > > I am happy to answer questions and discuss ways we can make Hyperbole > > and Org work even better together; one direct question per message > > would typically work best. Responses may take awhile as my schedule > > makes it difficult to keep up with high volume mailing lists but if > > you cc: rsw@gnu.org, I'll likely see your message faster and respond. > > --0000000000002deffb05e238cb30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Juan:

Thanks for the positive thoughts on Hyperbole.= =C2=A0 I must say everyone here has a great attitude and writes thoughtfull= y from what I have seen.

It seems like you are off to a good start u= tilizing core features as you get familiar with them and then adding on acr= oss time.

We do like avy and as you say, Hyperbole can work with it.= =C2=A0 We try to avoid requiring any non-builtin Emacs packages for Hyperbo= le.=C2=A0 With a few, we support them optionally.=C2=A0 Unless there is a s= trong use case for utilizing avy in certain ways, we would tend to leave th= at to others to extend Hyperbole but personally I just add it in and use it= s=C2=A0character and line navigation sometimes.=C2=A0 Did you have any part= icular uses in mind?

-- rsw


On Fri, Jun 24, 2022 at 9:52= AM Juan Manuel Mac=C3=ADas <m= aciaschain@posteo.net> wrote:
Hi, Robert,

First of all, welcome to the list. And of course congratulations on all
the great work you've done with hyperbole. In my ignorance, when I
recently installed it from ELPA, I thought it was a relatively recent
package. But it seems that you have been developing it for a long time,
while adapting it to the latest GNU Emacs trends. This is fortunate,
because what is new is combined with experience and the residue of work
already done over the years.

At the moment I am not going to comment here anything specific on the
technical level, because I have been using hyperbole for a short time
and my knowledge of this package is still very limited. I think the best strategy for using hyperbole, from a user's point of view, is to simply=
use it. And gradually discover which parts of hyperbole can be useful
and integrate into one's workflow. This is more practical than trying t= o
start from a global conceptual base (IMHO). I'm still having trouble explaining what Org is for and what Org really is :-). But this is also
the case with Emacs itself. When I first started using Emacs I thought
it was just a text editor, like any other text editor. In fact, on my
first day with Emacs I hated it dearly and uninstalled it in a rage. Now it's my desktop environment and my work environment, with EXWM, with Org, among others, and hopefully with Hyperbole as well. I suppose that
it is the daily use that is making us connect the dots...

I really like the implicit link system, and it is really easy to define
new links. I have already defined a set of new buttons for LaTeX, which
recognize commands and environments and point to the local TeX live
documentation or texstackexchange.com. And with avy they work great.<= br> Have you thought about giving a support for avy? In any case it is easy
to add a new avy action to avy-dispatch-alist.

Best regards,

Juan Manuel

Robert Weiner writes:

> Hi:
>
> Thanks to Juan for starting this thread and the interesting
> conversation it has started.=C2=A0 I just joined this mail list, so I = don't
> have the prior messages and can't reply to the thread, so I have > started this new one.
>
> I am the author of Hyperbole and would be happy to answer questions > concerning Hyperbole today (so you don't have to answer based on > experience from the 1990s).=C2=A0 Hyperbole has been modernized for us= e
> with Org mode and Emacs 28 and continues to develop.=C2=A0 There are v= ideos
> that demonstrate some of its features in simple, understandable ways.<= br> > Hyperbole is a single Emacs package that can be installed and
> uninstalled quickly for testing.=C2=A0 It is largely a global minor mo= de,
> so you can also disable it quickly if you ever care to.=C2=A0 In 20 mi= nutes
> you can get through the builtin, interactive demo and be on your way > to basic yet powerful usage.=C2=A0 We have listened to much feedback i= n the
> last few years and made it much more approachable.
>
> I find most of the confusion is people trying to understand how
> Hyperbole works under the covers rather than just following the
> tutorial and exploring it.=C2=A0 Hyperbole can be hacked on if you are= a
> moderate to advanced programmer but it is meant to be used, like Org > mode.=C2=A0 Hyperbole recognizes many, many common contexts in buffers= that
> could serve as hyperlinks (paths, URLs, multiple key sequences, mail > addresses, and on and on) and performs the typically desired action > when you press its Action Key {M-RET} on these 'implicit buttons&#= 39;.
> You get all this for free with no effort on your part.=C2=A0 Then if y= ou
> want to extend such behavior, as you have seen a bit of, you can
> define your own implicit button and action types once and then
> activate an infinite number of matching implicit buttons.=C2=A0 For > example, in an Emacs shell buffer, type:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 echo $PATH
>
> then press the {M-RET} key or Shift-Middle mouse button on any path > there and jump right to it.=C2=A0 I find that very useful as a simple<= br> > example.=C2=A0 People are often surprised at how many things simply wo= rk
> right out of the box because such broad context-sensitive behavior is<= br> > difficult to develop and rarely seen.=C2=A0 Just try it out and you sh= ould
> find some contexts that you can leverage rapidly.=C2=A0 {C-h A} displa= ys
> what Hyperbole's Action Key will do in any context so you can alwa= ys
> check and learn before activating anything.=C2=A0 We say: Hyperbole br= ings
> your text to life.=C2=A0 Like Org and Emacs, it provides an extensive<= br> > environment that you can grow into across time, getting ever more
> productive rather than hitting a ceiling as with most point
> packages/tools.
>
> I am happy to answer questions and discuss ways we can make Hyperbole<= br> > and Org work even better together; one direct question per message
> would typically work best.=C2=A0 Responses may take awhile as my sched= ule
> makes it difficult to keep up with high volume mailing lists but if > you cc: rsw@gnu.org, I'll likely see your message faster and respond.

--0000000000002deffb05e238cb30--