From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id EIVCIx6dRGNTsAAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 00:30:54 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id uEA0Ix6dRGPp1QAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 00:30:54 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09C3C1005C for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 00:30:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:37034 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oi1IT-0005aA-5w for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:30:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oi1HX-0005Zb-Ji for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:29:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:56470) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oi1HX-0004vX-B4 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:29:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=To:Subject:Date:From:In-Reply-To:References: MIME-Version; bh=LATw1gkQf7QUiSMmINBwEO5mLieHmwF34HVCpIi6me4=; b=X+PeU+W9Ta1E w7McV0HVOWTqvEERhwOfC1+7nghBrTa8vKABevJ+p1lEV2AoF3VneaSJaEX/ZH+4ACNE7Z8nHX1+r VvH/chPqS/avEFmK2dXySdmIuFoNOP1bWtsw708oIEInGoAMjDmDzduWPvcEaC85DZk/gMTtX43IQ T/eihZW1ZT5TLmgTbKwMYMXrCr4D65yz2u+wArNljfWeBP4yAhuipz7pyZ4faHFqmRdYKDAW4Aakb waL9njzjAi+bpFn7cGeFRPzoaQ/67SK6Ay53BIAzHXubmjKyqaatif5lI2b+99EH+L3Sqar/aZLhk EfLm+YFcenAmrkhBOY0D6w==; Received: from mail-vs1-f42.google.com ([209.85.217.42]:46760) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oi1HX-0005Qh-41 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:29:55 -0400 Received: by mail-vs1-f42.google.com with SMTP id a2so6905322vsc.13 for ; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 15:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1oTmLxCt4/4qk5fNclc8WEy9zQye5w9Wb0nTVsV38raoFD5/VS JjsgKLQSANbzfdDtDROrWRFNIE0ccsrFnWydq3M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7ljrWuwwr3UmU2vBGRhGiUzSbB8IwFTZn5bqh4cNVqOsd0/bs/AKQjgcQ0PCm6027wGDOFdsqcE0JXfjTd7KI= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f657:0:b0:3a7:8a80:c83c with SMTP id u23-20020a67f657000000b003a78a80c83cmr2947758vso.80.1665440994364; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87lfb9bwff.fsf@m4x.org> <090c6ca8-62e1-edcd-d348-688281c4840d@univ-rouen.fr> <2f7144aa5baf5c9285d0e107df0445a0@riseup.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Weiner Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:29:27 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: SQLite for contacts and relations to Org - Re: contact management in emacs To: =?UTF-8?B?UXVpbGlybyBPcmTDs8OxZXo=?= , emacs-orgmode Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dd128705eab5b28c" X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rswgnu@gmail.com Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1665441054; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=LATw1gkQf7QUiSMmINBwEO5mLieHmwF34HVCpIi6me4=; b=bIeiNabk35FWgJ3+3jaVgEMM7wFDbLj8RYDknQkvHPizBz9nk+a5zK66by4KhOsWgMcSx9 U7RBi2nVSFnfBLJqaPfbIEEl/eX7GAqiLPuT/y5LgAtCZJOlfL35r3delhqpSoMl+1Vk10 vJrLDhPeBqA3ZQf1lwQju/SunyvxlXIcf223HrkwUd2JLgh1LFWACUOE33h6dz59WHC5/1 cahBpP/irwku0+mI574zUiIPGEwhF6HrPWSzu2Fj6k6PFN/JKIeJf45z3ZmxLKuwGZ+u0L ERHdiuZQKQth4xe6QEwdLJt9ANYtnaELA/uRjFWpPeQ1QpHTPBZjA/q+IR0LxA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1665441054; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=RXnsqjqfsalLh290+AU5tDL+bChhHOW52ZH9L6XnRBgBgnpRIgFh19cdsNFNDynFXvr68+ 0k2IoqdRt/r1mX5z7cURYbSM8DWfEh3e48f8oC+zFrOfq1L+8ApTeuzbjpFeW6f5wy2U8F qtOFjg1nWVTii3vrWwJVDMmaU0QJCElkBEEgo9fjfkq4fTMQbeGfKKHtklFTe1HM8HOujV UvNRrF/SCpfeP78HxJlzNi+zFW5vJjYtaD61EtxTEX/Uq8f+fzn/8QfaD9bOYIa4QuNn9N ylOnSfQxZfnaGkT3hLG5B4XLpP+wysIMdbC1eSWkYUORqwnSJd+CIQ4w8LpeTw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=X+PeU+W9; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.59 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=X+PeU+W9; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 09C3C1005C X-Spam-Score: -7.59 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: DhXGSWDYoZb0 --000000000000dd128705eab5b28c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jean: A few thoughts. 1. Although I understand you do a great many things with your database-backed Hyperscope system and I work with RDBMSes every day, I don't really see great value in what you have shown in the context of contact management when compared to the already existing HyRolo or org-contacts. We can easily add, delete, import and export contacts, we just follow very simple conventions in creating our contacts. We can easily email contact files and have people apply text processing tools to them, so it would help if you just showed examples of something that Emacs really lacks before suggesting wrapping everything into a database system, as I know you are a very smart guy. 2. Years ago as part of my stab at an Emacs-based IDE, InfoDock (find it on Sourceforge), I also wrote an in-memory, file-based but fully relational database. The main point of which was to demonstrate direct manipulation querying of relational tables via simple mouse clicks/key presses on screen. For simple queries, I found this very powerful and dirt simple for people to do. If that were of interest, someone could take the existing code under infodock/id-lisp/rdb and interface it to SQLite pretty easily I would expect and then you would have an interesting Emacs interface without having to master SQL for basic table analysis. -- rsw On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 6:12 AM Jean Louis wrote: > * Quiliro Ord=C3=B3=C3=B1ez [2022-10-09 22:10]: > > I agree. But the end-user did not construct this program. It was you. > > I coould learn how to install it. Then, I should teach the end-user to > > use it. But the program was not made or installed by the end-user. I > > might be able to teach the end-user to modify it. But I doubt it. > > I will make a package so that you just install it and can start > managing people. > > > What I mean is that end-users must have an easy entry point. Of course > > that ease must not hide innner workings because that would disempower > > the end-user. How do you propose it could be implemented? (if you agre= e > > it should be done this way, of course) > > Inner workings are pretty much hidden unless user is programmer. Emacs > is difficult, then there is underlying Emacs Lisp, then C language, > then operating system, and stuff. > > Maybe you mean somthing else with inner workings? > > > > I have actually shown to you how it works, so you have to imagine tha= t > > > all that may be part of the package. Especially with SQLite databases > > > there is nothing to configure. > > > > Not much to do. Just installing SQLite and then the program you > > propose. > > I did not try any SQLite package, just used the built-in functions in > Emacs development version. Which packag did you install? > > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > > --000000000000dd128705eab5b28c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jean:

A few thoughts.

1. Although I understan= d you do a great many things with your database-backed Hyperscope system an= d I work with RDBMSes every day, I don't really see great value in what= you have shown in the context of contact management when compared to the a= lready existing HyRolo or org-contacts.=C2=A0 We can easily add, delete, im= port and export contacts, we just follow very simple conventions in creatin= g our contacts.=C2=A0 We can easily email contact files and have people app= ly text processing tools to them, so it would help if you just showed examp= les of something that Emacs really lacks before suggesting wrapping everyth= ing into a database system, as I know you are a very smart guy.

=
2. Y= ears ago as part of my stab at an Emacs-based IDE, InfoDock (find it on Sou= rceforge), I also wrote an in-memory, file-based but fully relational datab= ase.=C2=A0 The main point of which was to demonstrate direct manipulation q= uerying of relational tables via simple mouse clicks/key presses on screen.= =C2=A0 For simple queries, I found this very powerful and dirt simple for p= eople to do.=C2=A0 If that were of interest, someone could take the existin= g code under infodock/id-lisp/rdb and interface it to SQLite pretty easily = I would expect and then you would have an interesting Emacs interface witho= ut having to master SQL for basic table analysis.

-- rsw

=

=

On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 6:12 AM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> w= rote:
* Quiliro = Ord=C3=B3=C3=B1ez <quiliro@riseup.net> [2022-10-09 22:10]:
> I agree.=C2=A0 But the end-user did not construct this program.=C2=A0 = It was you.
> I coould learn how to install it.=C2=A0 Then, I should teach the end-u= ser to
> use it.=C2=A0 But the program was not made or installed by the end-use= r.=C2=A0 I
> might be able to teach the end-user to modify it.=C2=A0 But I doubt it= .

I will make a package so that you just install it and can start
managing people.

> What I mean is that end-users must have an easy entry point.=C2=A0 Of = course
> that ease must not hide innner workings because that would disempower<= br> > the end-user.=C2=A0 How do you propose it could be implemented? (if yo= u agree
> it should be done this way, of course)

Inner workings are pretty much hidden unless user is programmer. Emacs
is difficult, then there is underlying Emacs Lisp, then C language,
then operating system, and stuff.

Maybe you mean somthing else with inner workings?

> > I have actually shown to you how it works, so you have to imagine= that
> > all that may be part of the package. Especially with SQLite datab= ases
> > there is nothing to configure.
>
> Not much to do.=C2=A0 Just installing SQLite and then the program you<= br> > propose.

I did not try any SQLite package, just used the built-in functions in
Emacs development version. Which packag did you install?

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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