From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id wPj/NMSJuGIY9wAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:31:00 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id qAzlM8SJuGLsYQEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:31:00 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7538220DD1 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 18:31:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:34822 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5VA3-0000pt-B1 for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:30:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56830) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5V8Q-0000pk-4C for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:29:18 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50850) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5V8P-0005Cx-Ro for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:29:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=To:Subject:Date:From:In-Reply-To:References: MIME-Version; bh=jLehRir9g5bLKmJyw5E3T+VuiriBQK4h/DT1e/6uLWk=; b=KuJbFsb5M3M2 JkP0B8AyOvpfiElRTM7M/6Q3FD5YtEDRvNJBKeWhxo/edtdYsHbhTao2uw9dt9RRIguUVWzlG4rjg X3pDVy2TZwQZ4foEzsTiiaC03aL18mfdk5mF//V1tvK3uA1IURtJzLs8qLyGIZhnYy8H00tpgkFHa Obb4QqZqqtre+BvKy7AyXBLhQ1zE2Tj5IccUF6/YTOrH4Sg4Yn6CbEf21rq3pMSxFbdnlC4woOta3 OdEKedGP3NNGlidLOkaarGteToINevFFy5q5fn9Cc/IcFJZ5EXYOEyBUbXfXrn99K8V8qLTPJRoKY Bm+fCE+q7YktzGWOIAPLPQ==; Received: from mail-yb1-f179.google.com ([209.85.219.179]:46712) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5V8P-0002WW-Kf for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:29:17 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f179.google.com with SMTP id l11so12873541ybu.13 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 09:29:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9F9xICZApH9nJ/rJoJBkjItwSVZlp/zviJDksRSQsPYEMEtMlB aIxBmSd40db34VkZM3c82YsonuLtNX13c5K/7X4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1u+ILafI8z7AatNAzPOcKzetrLcgAP07sXIlRWOZYNh26x4d2rSrchtMa4dgIM7Z+tSCZuGcFadEc1bnBTJFAA= X-Received: by 2002:a25:6b04:0:b0:66c:a055:4b05 with SMTP id g4-20020a256b04000000b0066ca0554b05mr4145228ybc.357.1656260957129; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 09:29:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Weiner Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:28:51 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Org, Hyperbole, and eev To: Eduardo Ochs Cc: Org Mode Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000001519905e25c4eec" X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rswgnu@gmail.com Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1656261060; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=jLehRir9g5bLKmJyw5E3T+VuiriBQK4h/DT1e/6uLWk=; b=llJyc/ccWAz1BRFQco3o43aRnqP83zAun8L5cXx62E72i7mZXFL6di4AE0ZBUxvo5SuyeW LRrFv+3+nTyGvgr/EQ+aCLm6Ki8mqnK9k5DvIIvZYHdfdE3JH+TqYWkI/5iopbXrZimTee nPS8yoXQcrNTUQSd0aC8Qv8v6jHXsHOX3IRbq9Y+feGN4n5OQQ36o4ptVuHLJe2rziqIuK Jou+HfHzmne82Ne2c2q2nTwCcMcZAPpg5MekduU6Jz0wrIjYLihkMXB7Ws7QPl0+jjNWYA 9w3WggMZPZCQbQfsS8oHC/KdSuTVbzBq+N8oJCiBF+PJ9V6urOdH0CjCR/PRZQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1656261060; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Hci9Sx4aDxNT1WoZ/EEmTr4YpM0tOGx9XIiTvfk2sIkXF48YznN2tAb6FPgUMd+LUQsJmU Uhne+nS1Er3S079YawIBRTrlRBNSNfHpKpQPIgYGdYKa8QXwBFGXzEE6PeUC8UcVuDs3hk 5ZwFhaBc9cGQkTHxDNIFQuahubJfgtyO7/QEQH/DGwbr/9Mj+Mn1T/zRWyuzHcBDC0Vc33 JsxDL44DQVwNwq69D+WaJm/t5p0P6egA0dd1sRfznzvrK+gTZ7m6DT2KhJHyvDeTJb4/Bg b4NWPBS/1yxpbDjB05gBe5heWXfEPWT7BxvfizHDBx2eDLkkcsh0tFL5L7X9gw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=KuJbFsb5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.16 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=KuJbFsb5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7538220DD1 X-Spam-Score: -5.16 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: tdJYvl3kA6Jc --00000000000001519905e25c4eec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Eduardo: I really think that you are confused in saying that Hyperbole and Org are hacker-unfriendly. Yes, they are targeted at users who don't have to understand the programming, but if you do understand Lisp programming well, the interactive features are available as Lisp functions in almost all cases, so you simply have to dive in, find the functions you want and utilize or change them. In fact, Hyperbole offers 'action implicit buttons' that utilize angle-bracket syntax to turn any Lisp function (or hyperbole button type call or variable reference) into a hyperbutton that runs the function with arguments or displays the variable, e.g. . With Hyperbole, much of the behavior is factored into class-like libraries with the 'methods' alphabetized and separated into public and private groupings. Now some of this code is complex in order to handle many contexts and make things simple to the user but that is a matter of you understanding this complexity if you want to hack on it. I'm not sure what else you could ask for in packages. -- rsw On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 11:58 AM Eduardo Ochs wrote: > Hi all, > > this message is slightly off-topic, and a shameless plug... > > Eev can do many things that Org and Hyperbole and do, but it makes > very little sense to people who can play the role of "users" well, in > the sense of people who can "use" Emacs packages without looking at > the elisp source and hacking it, i.e.: reading the source of the > package, inspecting and understanding its data structures, and > creating sexps that call the package's functions directly... > > Eev still has a couple of parts whose data structures are hard to > inspect. I don't regard these parts as "real" bugs, but I do regard > them as hugely embarassing - and I have just fixed one of them: > `find-here-links', that is explained in this section of the main > tutorial, > > http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#4.1 > > and in this other tutorial: > > http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-here-links-intro.html > > The way to run `find-here-links' in debug mode is explained here, > > http://angg.twu.net/eev-current/eev-hlinks.el.html > > in the second part of the ";;; Commentary:" at the top - look for > "Debug mode". > > As I mentioned in the other thread > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-06/msg00524.html > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-06/threads.html#00524 > > and in these pages, > > http://angg.twu.net/2021-org-for-non-users.html > http://angg.twu.net/find-elisp-intro.html > http://angg.twu.net/eev-wconfig.html > http://angg.twu.net/hyperbole.html > > I find Org and Hyperbole difficult mainly because they are > hacker-unfriendly. It _may be_ that some of the people who said that > they find Org very hard in this thread > > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2022-06/threads.html#00186 > > would also benefit from a bit more of hacker-friendliness... and so it > would be great if more ideas could flow between Org, eev, and Hyperbole. > > Cheers and sorry the noise =P, > Eduardo Ochs > http://angg.twu.net/#eev > > --00000000000001519905e25c4eec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eduardo:

I really think that you are confused in say= ing that Hyperbole and Org are hacker-unfriendly.=C2=A0 Yes, they are targe= ted at users who don't have to understand the programming, but if you d= o understand Lisp programming well, the interactive features are available = as Lisp functions in almost all cases, so you simply have to dive in, find = the functions you want and utilize or change them.

In fact, Hyperbol= e offers 'action implicit buttons' that utilize angle-bracket synta= x to turn any Lisp function (or hyperbole button type call or variable refe= rence) into a hyperbutton that runs the function with arguments or displays= the variable, e.g.=C2=A0 <find-file "~/.org/my-org-file.org">.

With Hyperbole, much of = the behavior is factored into class-like libraries with the 'methods= 9; alphabetized and separated into public and private groupings.=C2=A0 Now = some of this code is complex in order to handle many contexts and make thin= gs simple to the user but that is a matter of you understanding this comple= xity if you want to hack on it.

I'm not sure what else you could= ask for in packages.

-- rsw

On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 11:58 AM E= duardo Ochs <eduardoochs@gmail.= com> wrote:
Hi all,

this message is slightly off-topic, and a shameless plug...

Eev can do many things that Org and Hyperbole and do, but it makes
very little sense to people who can play the role of "users" well= , in
the sense of people who can "use" Emacs packages without looking = at
the elisp source and hacking it, i.e.: reading the source of the
package, inspecting and understanding its data structures, and
creating sexps that call the package's functions directly...

Eev still has a couple of parts whose data structures are hard to
inspect. I don't regard these parts as "real" bugs, but I do = regard
them as hugely embarassing - and I have just fixed one of them:
`find-here-links', that is explained in this section of the main
tutorial,

=C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/fi= nd-eev-quick-intro.html#4.1

and in this other tutorial:

=C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-= here-links-intro.html

The way to run `find-here-links' in debug mode is explained here,

=C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/eev-current/eev-hlink= s.el.html

in the second part of the ";;; Commentary:" at the top - look for=
"Debug mode".

As I mentioned in the other thread

=C2=A0 https://lists.gnu.org/a= rchive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-06/msg00524.html
=C2=A0 https://lists.gnu.= org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-06/threads.html#00524

and in these pages,

=C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/2021-org-for-non-users.htm= l
=C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/find-elisp-intro.html
=C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/eev-wconfig.html
=C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/hyperbole.html

I find Org and Hyperbole difficult mainly because they are
hacker-unfriendly. It _may be_ that some of the people who said that
they find Org very hard in this thread

=C2=A0 https://lists.gnu.or= g/archive/html/emacs-devel/2022-06/threads.html#00186

would also benefit from a bit more of hacker-friendliness... and so it
would be great if more ideas could flow between Org, eev, and Hyperbole.
=C2=A0 Cheers and sorry the noise =3DP,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eduardo Ochs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://angg.twu.net/#eev

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