From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4MFCJe2tQWPQBQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 19:05:49 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id YMRMJe2tQWPq3AAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 19:05:49 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D050B428B2 for ; Sat, 8 Oct 2022 19:05:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52386 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohDGm-000093-0f for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 13:05:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33914) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohDGE-00008u-8H for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 13:05:14 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49398) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohDGD-00012B-UR for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 13:05:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=To:Subject:Date:From:In-Reply-To:References: MIME-Version; bh=xq8Vae9aJCuDX33oJ6A6f+o5aKYgMqnkWPTAizl2tu4=; b=rs9RJoMvj+O2 H8TsLTFZdR5YLKBKIjuz6cuFXLsAdvtI+py8Ec4w9Oz25GzbatDY3sstBcDbo5NWDeS0y3I0Wy2QP isxjn7l9mda5cMs284oj3rD3vxoMThR9nrGhIVXsYEJLmOoIkI5Gprqsm4tlLMwgZIgVaIl73JM7m EvS/yBbOXWxbHBc1SgL4gn9KCTAJB+etXfnNQVN8+pZZg0SPFk2qh41OCsVkAWunkJxNbPLxbod68 Xz83M1GW/pHxzcoMHiq2/4jrUuDOPkiNdyY0+Mfhnmvx/xtt/eMTOdT/i2YTn907/MiYcxieSX0up 7VqLy+FCdIu44Ls/Y3wnag==; Received: from mail-vk1-f180.google.com ([209.85.221.180]:46856) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohDGD-0000tQ-M5 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 13:05:13 -0400 Received: by mail-vk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id u204so1069758vkb.13 for ; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 10:05:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3OzfyRbJZ8MKZ/AD6xLyJ61bADRFX2uLHyJHtt9yemSnSo2s2s /8UpWJS1HpQ8u4kOUSdNOpi/XBpbV/ELaDmImD0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM75O7ZhaXZP73CZhPRsU/MTrzES2TLRmY83ujHHb5kkMJGC1DzV7dmdTdFdoji+ozdo5jrbqFF1aKZCorRZTiU= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:3285:0:b0:3a9:ebd7:db97 with SMTP id y127-20020a1f3285000000b003a9ebd7db97mr5533799vky.14.1665248713046; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 10:05:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <878rlw3ws3.fsf@gmail.com> <87tu4fdty1.fsf@aol.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Weiner Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2022 13:04:46 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Org and Hyperbole To: Hendursaga , Payas Relekar , emacs-org list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000001009705ea88eeca" X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rswgnu@gmail.com Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1665248749; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=xq8Vae9aJCuDX33oJ6A6f+o5aKYgMqnkWPTAizl2tu4=; b=spfu+OqYU2zvgtYdywtBLUwb51WfkOPgeykP01vgWdURhvXLNeviwQGzpGnQHoOJgwmxRI wBoiQD9yhCHMcsVnCgXwITiI1GdsQqN+3dTbVIH4H4P5SRryqSlIOSduoPvM84uKLF78OV gnJsa3Uk21Dye6luJVwEJRdy2Xl/11aEl9sv+jPG+cs6NhaWk6Djp65VFR3HGi0uwRz9Py anlcVCr2VmsJoazUrRply51B8d6PVYGNjWtqxiKLc9eRBBR7eKfwLWfWbItX9oYPVAjowW OUPOSA2kgg71Keg6l7zyz2kS5eFBW+fQ7nyQgCKdBDaWOYwmEybJj0xJ+bRhvA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1665248749; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=SmmzQTHFskkFG6NJTW+jwLYwKsLC3iAzhX2fxypVm7QigKtddY+ggVhyOepCmBAUUjEY7/ DZZdPwG1wU1XsHAKh2vrYHQYUqLJ8YNy3tsD8tQ/S9SVPm2xqm+BOZdODmHS6lu2JdbMHI fanRO7KuEUZATEFVEAC4mLXqhzoqYamO2WTPiViKe5iyaK3cEUmuJt17AL5B9E5b99nwqv QYifnw9NeKFermX69cdmylAOey9NzH8/Ul0YUJmYy7Em8REl8IEmW6kyT7p3ss28/Iqy+N igm4vViJg49pfsScnlb0P9LfuflYqS4xoLH2NVGnCzsx4vpKUrilyJbKqDRs2A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=rs9RJoMv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.58 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=rs9RJoMv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: D050B428B2 X-Spam-Score: -3.58 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: PwOUtv4gD+ib --00000000000001009705ea88eeca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Guys: I know what SQLite, org-roam and multi-user RDBMSes are and I use all of these things at various levels. They are useful in many ways as you have pointed out and across time, we may consider optional integrations but one of the core design principles of Hyperbole is to work in all fairly current major versions of Emacs (today this is back to V27) on any display device and to not require any other external packages or C-compiled modules. Now we will add optional package support where useful as we have done for Treemacs, ace-window and org-rifle but never require such things to use all of Hyperbole's base functionality. We then know that all Emacs users can install Hyperbole and use it effectively without any external dependencies required, whether on a terminal or an old operating system or what have you. This is part of the value of Emacs, common capabilities across a wide spectrum of computing environments. If I had my druthers, Hyperbole would ship pre-compiled as well since in the past the byte-compiled code was forward-compatible across many major Emacs versions, but this no longer seems to be the case to me and the Emacs package system requires byte-compilation at installation time anyway, so we have a bit less of a 'turn-key' system than desired. Although we build Hyperbole so it can be highly customized and programmed, we know that many people are just looking for ready to use productivity improving packages, many more than want to hack on a package. Therefore, we focus our energies on delivering more and more value in that direction. Org-roam is very capable for many people and we are not out to simply replicate it and slightly improve upon its behavior. We want to provide a simpler, more contained solution for people who like and use HyRolo and want a similar solution for note taking. Quick and easy-to-use where you can get in and out quickly, restoring your prior context rapidly, working with multiple file formats and usable wherever you use Emacs. -- rsw On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 1:03 AM Jean Louis wrote: > * Hendursaga [2022-10-08 03:46]: > > Jean Louis writes: > > > > > Of course it is so much better option than keeping stuff in text. All > properties shall be in the database. SQLite is not a network database, th= us > it disables collaboration. It is better developing with PostgresSQL or > MariaDB, or other network databases. > > > > Vanilla SQLite, that is. There are multiple[1] SQLite[2] addons[3] > around[4] that add some sort of distributed layer to it, most being > zero-cost (or at least low-cost) abstractions. Pretty cool, I'd say! > > > > ~ Hendursaga > > > > [1] https://dqlite.io/ > > [2] https://litestream.io/ > > [3] https://github.com/losfair/mvsqlite > > [4] https://github.com/rqlite/rqlite > > Thanks, insightful, I have reviewed links. But none tells me that it > is truly network based database. Of course one may replicate files > through network and send data, that is not what is meant with network > database. One can make layers on top of it, but that does not make it > multi user or suitable for collaboration. > > From: > https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html > > ,---- > | Many concurrent writers? =E2=86=92 choose client/server > | > | If many threads and/or processes need to write the database at the > | same instant (and they cannot queue up and take turns) then it is best > | to select a database engine that supports that capability, which > | always means a client/server database engine. > | > | SQLite only supports one writer at a time per database file. But in > | most cases, a write transaction only takes milliseconds and so > | multiple writers can simply take turns. SQLite will handle more write > | concurrency than many people suspect. Nevertheless, client/server > | database systems, because they have a long-running server process at > | hand to coordinate access, can usually handle far more write > | concurrency than SQLite ever will. > `---- > > > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > > --00000000000001009705ea88eeca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Guys:

I know what SQLite, org-roam = and multi-user RDBMSes are and I use all of these things at various levels.= =C2=A0 They are useful in many ways as you have pointed out and across time= , we may consider optional integrations but one of the core design principl= es of Hyperbole is to work in all fairly current major versions of Emacs (t= oday this is back to V27) on any display device and to not require any othe= r external packages or C-compiled modules.=C2=A0 Now we will add optional p= ackage support where useful as we have done for Treemacs, ace-window and or= g-rifle but never require such things to use all of Hyperbole's=C2=A0ba= se functionality.=C2=A0 We then know that all Emacs users can install Hyper= bole and use it effectively without any external dependencies required, whe= ther on a terminal or an old operating system or what have you.=C2=A0 This = is part of the value of Emacs, common capabilities across a wide spectrum o= f computing environments.

If I had my druthers, Hyperbole would ship= pre-compiled as well since in the past the byte-compiled code was forward-= compatible=C2=A0across many major Emacs versions, but this no longer seems = to be the case to me and the Emacs package system requires byte-compilation= at installation time anyway, so we have a bit less of a 'turn-key'= system than desired.

Although we build Hyperbole so it can be highl= y customized and programmed, we know that many people are just looking for = ready to use productivity improving packages, many more than want to hack o= n a package.=C2=A0 Therefore, we focus our energies on delivering more and = more value in that direction.

Org-roam is very capable for many peop= le and we are not out to simply replicate it and slightly improve upon its = behavior.=C2=A0 We want to provide a simpler, more contained solution for p= eople who like and use HyRolo and want a similar solution for note taking.= =C2=A0 Quick and easy-to-use where you can get in and out quickly, restorin= g your prior context rapidly, working with multiple file formats and usable= wherever you use Emacs.

-- rsw

On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 1:03 AM = Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
* Hendursaga <hendursaga@aol.com> [2022-10-08 03:46]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
> > Of course it is so much better option than keeping stuff in text.= All properties shall be in the database. SQLite is not a network database,= thus it disables collaboration. It is better developing with PostgresSQL o= r MariaDB, or other network databases.
>
> Vanilla SQLite, that is. There are multiple[1] SQLite[2] addons[3] aro= und[4] that add some sort of distributed layer to it, most being zero-cost = (or at least low-cost) abstractions. Pretty cool, I'd say!
>
> ~ Hendursaga
>
> [1] https://dqlite.io/
> [2] https://litestream.io/
> [3] https://github.com/losfair/mvsqlite
> [4] https://github.com/rqlite/rqlite

Thanks, insightful, I have reviewed links. But none tells me that it
is truly network based database. Of course one may replicate files
through network and send data, that is not what is meant with network
database. One can make layers on top of it, but that does not make it
multi user or suitable for collaboration.

From:
https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html

,----
| Many concurrent writers? =E2=86=92 choose client/server
|
| If many threads and/or processes need to write the database at the
| same instant (and they cannot queue up and take turns) then it is best | to select a database engine that supports that capability, which
| always means a client/server database engine.
|
| SQLite only supports one writer at a time per database file. But in
| most cases, a write transaction only takes milliseconds and so
| multiple writers can simply take turns. SQLite will handle more write
| concurrency than many people suspect. Nevertheless, client/server
| database systems, because they have a long-running server process at
| hand to coordinate access, can usually handle far more write
| concurrency than SQLite ever will.
`----


--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

--00000000000001009705ea88eeca--