From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id IKX+MckBs18ocAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 22:48:41 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id kI0JLskBs1+VTwAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 22:48:41 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71E2B940357 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 22:48:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48000 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kenIe-0003SN-7b for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:48:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43886) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kenF0-0008CB-Kh for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:44:54 -0500 Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::432]:33159) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kenEy-0000Rw-VU for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:44:54 -0500 Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id u12so13580944wrt.0 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:44:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=41xmEv2qPU26C+nR1/vrRyguBD7LH/nsuaWdh/375+w=; b=eb1FSBygl12Gp7d3KAWHQrXl/U9rCgt1eZsyYgY2055GF7+B05J5MOAa8rdD0zfrXK xojg5p2o1Z6dZXfvvw0GI5XsYE0fJYaxZW2bkoKxTjGEdQp4cEgylqpA4CHwmi3upivT NvR9f151yuVqLblmZqutcgdsIHQ8DokczxTF9ZuXQTWZ9mfR60r7aUzYIzXiFcyTS22O fSC4001chQLJtsZ3YtDNPipOotjFqlM+uklSlbdewef9CTqc6Y62otFJpCUturleHu/0 XHuUt0XSGd3K1gcUFD7ZV2KTGxZiWNIRNwMXDmbuA5+K28HbOs40Tc7RE/gE9EgRJXqX Hi/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=41xmEv2qPU26C+nR1/vrRyguBD7LH/nsuaWdh/375+w=; b=IyGo315eI3mIUrDjyQDIFq9nUIHU2G0AZNGdm4M2kV7utoZdHT+Irg8VuF6RXcUhMA 5rP3HjXQxB4RUylTCquL4QQrD97sIfLDwXdEtudO7sL/KfracKWtXC2kJ6BQuKmUEBcg GQDbJz0wMCyifReLQ8egpv7+DLCwFU/kOULbCa3wEp5/EACZvn59fxdxjWkd07xTGrtn 8wNPPviYAJlBf1MYXUjyk6kMNvlqlglMaJQBirFsSA4H1ZwY2OPFKx4c2wBzmEu7fP3P rTZ2177YccbVee64CIRMIoLe0RIAUoG7e/5xRQcsBTgg8iPIhDVCMcAYsz1JXYFpFlSc xghw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532uzYrnLS8qvstM3BZmcUY8/c7ezs7hkFNwo3DuA0VMfD1xu7pJ lSGwPemhCyhYO4B0LCqH+5cRz84A09mjEc19YiM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyYGg0q5wmJi4xuvlfg2afNxLt/wJWytYbC9ngoiTi46aR+bPZJKxeytCnqTI8cW3UisCeN3UW3hc3plBmHJRg= X-Received: by 2002:adf:9e48:: with SMTP id v8mr23223832wre.55.1605566691625; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:44:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> <87tutpvppm.fsf@kyleam.com> <871rgtwzrs.fsf@web.de> <87y2j1ahqf.fsf@gmail.com> <87v9e5uw2u.fsf@web.de> <87sg999g13.fsf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <87sg999g13.fsf@gmail.com> From: Tom Gillespie Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:44:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? To: Tim Cross Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::432; envelope-from=tgbugs@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x432.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" , emacs-orgmode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=eb1FSByg; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-TUID: FklZyhzQ7Utl > If people don't have time to read the NEWS file, I also doubt they would > be aware of the mini config file or have the time to add it to their > setup. There would be an additional burden on developers to maintain the > mini-config which might not actually result in any real benefit. I would > also be concerned this might setup an expectation which is difficult to > meet. It may not always be straight-forward to provide such a > mini-config and sometimes, it may actually be in the best interests of > the user to force a change on them because it brings other benefits that > outweigh the initial 'change pain'. Clearly this would not work for all types of changes. However there are numerous cases where a variable is changed from t to nil or similar where such functionality would be straightforward to implement and might be able to cover 80% of these kinds of issues. It should be entirely possible to teach users that as part of their upgrade process there is an option that they can set or command they can invoke which will automatically make changes to their config to preserve old default behavior. M-x org-post-update-restore-old-defaults or something. There are also intermediate changes such as the addition of the :extend keyword for faces which was given a default value that changed existing behavior by defaulting to nil instead of t. This kind of change is a combination of useful, annoying, and hard to fix without reading the NEWS if it is something that breaks your workflow. Emacs is usually pretty good about avoiding these kinds of major changes in behavior but sometimes the slip through and sometimes a change does need to be made and the best time to do so is as soon as possible. I suspect that this might be an area where org could benefit from more extensive testing coverage. There was a change between 9.1 and 9.3 that completely broke org babel edit src functionality because it did not correctly restore the window layout on exit. Now we just need to find people willing to write the tests in addition to notifying the mailing list :D. Best, Tom