From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id OEnLNfiXWmEn1gAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 07:58:16 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id +J98MfiXWmEESwAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 05:58:16 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F3DCD008 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:58:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:38968 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXGzO-00017L-OT for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 01:58:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56186) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXGyq-00017C-4H for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 01:57:40 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]:39523) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXGyo-0004kh-Ge for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 01:57:39 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id r18so1384105wrg.6 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 22:57:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=oWzZCyAQsrwmeBxETiLOIBX/snI704+SYHoj5eoSa8g=; b=mSRBANOERyMKmknLbZJBYaf2qndaQdncohoGcaeRRsw6WH6xIToBriX9yX94FDHQ2d NgNuebfWfMrV9Xod7yXF1F8j9MmayxC1SeU+tagnmkhp0ln3FopLutKfRtu8VXfqoWcw fw7KEwBHF6d78q2sR0B3gnrZPshimOq0ioHb/mtQlR9nN50URyPvD4qRJwgaXtPiToyI HcpEMv+4SgTQHdlw6Y82TsPu+dhT10JzwpggtmMhUSCLt2TYaDK8CYVBrlb1nZuOACPi 2/Z84CiqXNDragPih6Bnb5UNP4Iw3rgpXjfDXbjAp6qpO8hHW8qTjUim16yQOt+EqmRu dHXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oWzZCyAQsrwmeBxETiLOIBX/snI704+SYHoj5eoSa8g=; b=6gCKxNfr8dVXNgRgig5hFezwGueWZmKu1wUzBh4hpkxnGxm+3urYorbFTMsPglKgUN lnKMAV16wbwj0RIarHN+c3U3JkG71oK4N+1z0VfMBm75JuH1fcKCogxCLkWDeXfNujY5 FsLplSgNxakwDSIT2K/DPB2CckfLZtMAgqqcw29AtZqRMi1b5m099dmeNw6/oBwn6EYU yiewzlFaIi2QMP87krP47+FwvVninc7YaxY5o+fDCly2hhjr6ZKfEKRRyhHQ0QfGIDvN tOK0yoUznRB/6h1Xk2pcP5SU0wRYgUyyNxEs5bzQRKxZuOr4YcN0/t1yXdExQuNqjvt6 ssPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530FBqfmmaQOen6XbgAbdo5Ev0EovbkV8WrFdU+9wD32XDC+99Cv +J4B0Lf+Idrhgs4jNd+FMf8Z2L/Fn97SvTWsykIuqxRij6U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxophh0w3u/dl6BhVNGjDMb5fQ08R58iRiJ7GGHCFwh+dIVGZY/FcopYbx/iqkPSYYhGcZeXeu6rpjRqMk6NUo= X-Received: by 2002:adf:a1d5:: with SMTP id v21mr4942476wrv.105.1633327055234; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 22:57:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87czoq7z3p.fsf@gmail.com> <87tui1ew1o.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <871r5599j7.fsf@gmail.com> <87pmspevjy.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87bl49kca3.fsf@gmail.com> <87ee95ekrh.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87ilygo4uh.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87a6jr3fq6.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <87sfxjiumm.fsf@gmail.com> <87y27b1xga.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Gillespie Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:57:23 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] Don't fill displayed equations To: emacs-orgmode Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42d; envelope-from=tgbugs@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1633327096; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=oWzZCyAQsrwmeBxETiLOIBX/snI704+SYHoj5eoSa8g=; b=WDr5HwlAFU9y77W4bDYNyANkCTwuaq+wYqLq9xDgZAM5XXy7aW+wvNVYxp/tOCDyptRSG7 h3Y8DsXDiv/kLnJcEFgRKZpNi/W7UQWD0ON7LUK+UBLzlartRptYGMbqrcv2UTxyWKsjKG hPNqSG9mQNx0TK9OslnvVl8pWzkhhyFFjA/eVIWE9oZym2QKvbWSGyS4CvkkvTIuIHqKaq 4RNwzXKcCtqS9+zRoXzzo9X9IGgkilVY5qWHFPVmLL5X1s4GvuEiafDCcwrhKlSyJ5uorZ lB7xAxapytomn7GiwlWh3jZ5ArM5F9/s0CKx5UIO3DGqLEF4njEq6RgDErnN4A== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1633327096; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=kQ3gpBhBCFIly/+FFMrk4k+2ahVpA6nGItZ/AdVFf2enQKxHqbVokjrKzoVTxPYG5w9UcY KrlpcaRN9g0gCCWDT3Ulzj4XaQhKFUKAqeaK6sZaCJAsBLTztpIgHpwThxdtrC+f7nh+LG Z7tDHPzyVXKcXfVs9JFEvGHCDgcc48hAB03ta/QuHilNLxKy+GpITcnPmXm5rsA/vLukJ1 ug96gJJxn43tV3q8KqdTz5dZICi27UUSwjBHfuSomdwS0II0NkWfN9WKt5u83Q46ZQ7ZOu K0xbI03KtkH1EIlSLK30UWTtdlNTgDXpew71VQ0ON/dMuTMzgnuxZVsDCkwueQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=mSRBANOE; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.01 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=mSRBANOE; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5F3DCD008 X-Spam-Score: -4.01 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: qGKX4FmjmZmi Some thoughts. > Maybe you are right and Tom was actually assuming \begin{equation*}, not > #+begin_export latex. Correct. My bad on that one. > Just as Timothy, I believe that \begin{equation*} is unnecessary verbose > when \[ works *mostly* in a similar way. \begin{equation*} is absolutely required if you want to be able to include newlines because \[ and \begin are not similar at all as far as parsing is concerned. >From the spec: https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html#LaTeX_Environme= nts > CONTENTS can contain anything but the =E2=80=9C\end{NAME}=E2=80=9D string= . The spec is not completely accurate since latex environments can't contain a new heading, but the point is that latex environments are elements, whereas \[ \] is an object. > If I understand correctly, making \[ \] available outside paragraph > would mean that it becomes a new element (currently \[\] is a > latex-fragment object). Correct. Promoting \[ to an element would mean every \ in an org file becomes a stop word. Also, Since full fledged latex environments already exist to serve this purpose I find it hard to justify, especially given that Org tries to give clear indication of when a block structure is starting and ending. > Isn't the whole point of the \[ ... \], \( ... \), $ ... $, $$ ... $$, > and \begin{env} ... \end{env} and constructs in Org to be consistent > with LaTeX? For \begin and \end yes. For the others no. In general it would be to make it possible to express things using latex-like syntax that would otherwise require Org to come up with some new and different syntax. These are values that may be translated to latex, but they exist inside a larger syntax that is decidedly not latex, and thus they only have meaningful translation to latex if they exist as well formed Org. As a side note, the $ syntax is slated to be deprecated and removed. https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html#Entities_and_LaTeX_Fragments > It would introduce incompatibilities with previous Org versions, but > support for $...$ (and for symmetry, $$...$$) constructs ought to be remo= ved. > Indeed, it will be a breaking change. I'm actually fairly certain that such a change should never be made due to the recent changes in org link syntax. Specifically given how \[ is used for escapes in links. https://orgmode.org/manual/Link-Format.htm= l This means that the only place you could reliably use \[ is at the start of= a new line preceded only by whitespace. However, if this were to happen then pretty much every org document that uses \[ \] is at risk for being broken because something that was once a single paragraph will now be multiple paragraphs. If you need multiline use \begin \end, that is what they are there for, and= they fit better with org's general extensible approach to blocks. I would dearly= love to be able to have a single shorthand for src blocks that worked inline and standalone, but the complexity that it would induce is just not worth it. S= ame thing for \[ \]. It seems simple until you get down to account for all the = edge that it would induce in the grammar. Consider the case where you have something like \[ something something more content more content [[www.example.com/\]oops][evil link]] \] I've seen enough cases that are similar to this in the existing implementat= ion that have inconsistent behavior that I can safely say that this one would t= oo. Not to mention that I can think of at least 3 different cases that will all= have slightly different behavior that is inexplicable to users at best and infuriating at worst. \[ a b \] \[ a b \] a \[ b c \] d etc. There are plenty more variants that would all be subtly different depe= nding on the exact way such a thing were implemented. In short. Just not worth it.