From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id gMRaEBhQrmENgwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 19:02:00 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 6F4RDBhQrmEbEgAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 18:02:00 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC00790DD for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:01:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:41200 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIJK-0003fu-8d for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:01:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53838) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIHU-0003dX-Do for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:00:04 -0500 Received: from [2a00:1450:4864:20::331] (port=54008 helo=mail-wm1-x331.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIHM-0000Le-7g for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 12:59:57 -0500 Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id y196so8814345wmc.3 for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 09:59:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jFlLPAMg/P2ggghrdL7h7a564/v7GbWflDR+MR3JDL4=; b=bwmfk6vtTNVzi7CuRrY7dJ2Kh0gOWlaadGiNEeBmyfqDuuHTtXuQkXJGxb/dYoo/3y KTnbd2Chq5Hcv3R/0y0mqbTXKWh77X5oB8SMoJ52AwaXR1g3WEoiRYofvebWhgT+H5bz /Wmy6QiGgNFgZXbafhKF1jQJri31KH6L5rdQZnLUQkFJcb7yTNW8Wez5R98ihnHRRk0R Z7KlrjGvf6TF2O7HKnWTcnYhYmfSb3QInTuFhfA+s8z4S9ECODfD0XZdBEmKF3mDdD9V e4V9LyCQbi7s2CoKyJNlpaqqm8aRJz6fDU+RCl8J4hhK+9/f+igSU8srYnScoKc9xui6 10UA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jFlLPAMg/P2ggghrdL7h7a564/v7GbWflDR+MR3JDL4=; b=BsSeksRYtGGsuxms8x7uu12y6DSUHQVQOPrgUEjZtZdQt/2M26wZKKbdcRiOfqyO4W nd4m7Ex1S5Ey5o9roT2z3OmKwjZ/kiCExjMQvMthHrY2UGgyzBG9JqVGJupJrmRn/C1K FeHsjZ9cJrVgCG6HPEhZTw5EqfeYCC39iOLC3DuasH6v/NcrpH3x8xSm8rxc6/tNeg0K 4rURktpPp95Db2E0KqvvK0wxIt9YeQZQiNkwF77zbNUMK90db8z46omsT42hdC4kJ9Nw gUsgv6f/rBqRvlnhPUdGme2C5zBdaxuKNugLPNLWJ/6zrHf9j1Bau4M7GOAKee3gJE1D L9sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5321RaMiVWDVSA7JzTNNzOeQVrMnhgps65vuvqpxrg8TFMJc/8b1 PPm10uYm8WKcCrc/YIj2LrZxmtklIxedT68thN4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxSoNErBAACVaT5hlm+ND/97Ph9amYz8uaREN6X8H1T1ijxWa10/yyEGwgX1TmeUHYaIUxykX0SgfPa56KUGZg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:202:: with SMTP id 2mr83659wmi.134.1638813594307; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 09:59:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost> <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> <87o85vbb9a.fsf@localhost> <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87pmqasws7.fsf@posteo.net> <878rwyi8bt.fsf@posteo.net> <87r1aqnu3q.fsf@gmail.com> <8735n6i4br.fsf@posteo.net> <796107.1638785063@apollo2.minshall.org> <87tufl6apx.fsf@posteo.net> In-Reply-To: <87tufl6apx.fsf@posteo.net> From: Tom Gillespie Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:59:42 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal To: =?UTF-8?Q?Juan_Manuel_Mac=C3=ADas?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::331 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::331; envelope-from=tgbugs@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x331.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Greg Minshall , orgmode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638813719; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=jFlLPAMg/P2ggghrdL7h7a564/v7GbWflDR+MR3JDL4=; b=B38nzE8FdRa8a/BUhqJk8k0dB8N0acQdSIWGKTdZTKWxYY4ISAH3UrXgdwY8V4Z4jsuUb6 DUo2iWeA0Mrz9QkQ/PX/3GdGOiP8RwcuvOveCJfH6X+fumpjg0vK4PLGNKCRuZGeEVeEXD HHX/oNQWDpM0+pf5wP3fw/mNf2jC7L2MhRuhUUFD/3bz6JI4HC5mNj5Ezvgjh2zid1fjcC llhzlhGgz8Vku0cSNeFnVVnDkinfx6ADnajkqsw9IbeH/HAW8Rnp/Pz3KvhdHkDysTVAS+ EzuFbcI/d4ViIi4ZDU4aMs4zjN8cuMS2pdqk+7hDDdsQVPNWrx14pZ5QbVQ4hg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638813719; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=X+OYRXgnbyvm724eotQd8oNmgH3hA+RHDPG1+QhL2tpIthhg+rScJk88Vq7zc7EEV73EV+ tbmfLeInveg5UqYLKoGpBBqEpCfwDXLv+W4YDv2Wv7LQPLnTFoRQsQbSNh98v90h7Bv8kr yhzvRVJ66tar67101eIje+ukNQhDazNx6+FWr8rkO4CpzuGJuwcrKkD2NRDwU9gRLoUM4w Kj2Rxzy9mkh/K3QxZ8dhQOtdNakS1uSKh0aLPlawd7ItgNH6W5ReqN4hzISSsMmIuJDr4a pfwazGsDHV/bCAYO8Ve2ncKNgvlQOSqtG/bSWImEW7AH/tV/XnIM9YgxSqjNVA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=bwmfk6vt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=bwmfk6vt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: CC00790DD X-Spam-Score: -4.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: HVjnqIka3JWf Hi all, I have a much longer mail in the works, a quick one for now. I think it is a major strategic mistake to exclude discussions about interoperability from this list. As Bastien pointed out in his talk at Emacsconf there is only a single list for both users and developers. Discussion about interoperability with tools for working with Org are entirely valid subjects for the user list. Obviously help and support for other tools is not valid for the list, but questions about interoperability or incorrectness of some external tool should always be valid. We must provide strong technical leadership for all tools that want to work with Org syntax otherwise we risk it spiraling out of control. Forcing discussions off list will split the community and I think the fact that Karl's work made it to this list so late in the process shows the danger of trying to exclude certain discussions. I follow this list, I keep the community up to date with my work, I have no idea where to look for other Org related dicussions, nor frankly do I have time to look for them. I suspect I am not alone in this. Whether a certain portion of the Org community likes it or not, there is another portion for whom Org syntax already has a life beyond Org mode (e.g. academic papers and computation notebook style workflows). For some workflows documents written in Org syntax are a primary exchange format and format of record, not just an internal format from which documents for sharing are generated. The plain text nature of Org syntax and the freedom that it enables also means freedom from Emacs. Empowering users to own and control their own data to use with their own tools is the whole point. The fact that this means that it works outside Emacs is a critical feature for many data preservation use cases. Enough for now. Best! Tom