A shorter manual

A shorter manual

[Carsten Dominik]

Dear all,

with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
of the manual.

So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
everything which could be considered advanced material, but
keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.

What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
document - or if the existence of this document would lead
to more confusion than relief.

     http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf

I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
and constantly updated document.

Comments are welcome.

- Carsten

Re: A shorter manual

[Erik Iverson]

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
> of the manual.
> 
> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
> 
> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
> to more confusion than relief.
> 
>     http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
> 
> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
> and constantly updated document.
> 
> Comments are welcome.

I think it's a great idea.  The R project has something called "An 
Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual.  I 
think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into learning a new 
package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative psychological 
connotations that "reading the intro document" does not, not the least 
of which is the length of full manual.

And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely beneficial, I 
think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document.

--Erik

Re: A shorter manual

[Marco]

Hello,

> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
> to more confusion than relief.
>
>    http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf

This is IMHO a much appreciated relief.

Carsten, many thanks for all your efforts,
Marco

Re: A shorter manual

[Thomas S. Dye]

On Apr 28, 2010, at 5:46 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
> of the manual.
>
> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>
> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
> to more confusion than relief.
>
>    http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>
> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
> and constantly updated document.
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
> - Carsten
>

Aloha Carsten,

I think this is a terrific idea, immediately useful.

The addition of hyperref links back to the advanced material in the  
manual might be useful and shouldn't require much maintenance.

A section at the end of each chapter, "Additional Reading," with links  
to Worg articles, etc. might also prove useful, but could be a pain to  
maintain.

All the best,
Tom

Re: A shorter manual

[Dan Davison]

Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes:

> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>> of the manual.
>>
>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>
>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>> to more confusion than relief.
>>
>>     http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>
>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>> and constantly updated document.
>>
>> Comments are welcome.

Hi Carsten,

I think this would be a good thing to have. 

It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main manual
sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by
texinfo format).

I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have done.
If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the following
sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-technical
advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual.

- 2.8 Drawers
- 3.2 Column width and alignment
- 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
- 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
  (do beginners really need properties at all ??)

Dan

>
> I think it's a great idea.  The R project has something called "An
> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual.
> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into learning a
> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative
> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does not,
> not the least of which is the length of full manual.
>
> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely beneficial,
> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document.
>
> --Erik
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: A shorter manual

[Dan Davison]

Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes:

> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>> of the manual.
>>
>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>
>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>> to more confusion than relief.
>>
>>     http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>
>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>> and constantly updated document.
>>
>> Comments are welcome.

Hi Carsten,

I think this would be a good thing to have. 

It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main manual
sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by
texinfo format).

I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have done.
If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the following
sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-technical
advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual.

- 2.8 Drawers
- 3.2 Column width and alignment
- 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
- 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
  (do beginners really need properties at all ??)

Dan

>
> I think it's a great idea.  The R project has something called "An
> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual.
> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into learning a
> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative
> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does not,
> not the least of which is the length of full manual.
>
> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely beneficial,
> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document.
>
> --Erik
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: A shorter manual

[Samuel Wales]

Great idea.

If the manual were in org, then the tag, :basic:, would suffice.  Just
export only that tag.  But maybe that is more work instead of less?

On 2010-04-28, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
> of the manual.
>
> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>
> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
> to more confusion than relief.
>
>      http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>
> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
> and constantly updated document.
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>


-- 
Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years]
==========
Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html

Re: A shorter manual

[Samuel Wales]

Just realized the need for export to info.  So never mind.  And it was
obvious anyway.

On 2010-04-28, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
> Great idea.
>
> If the manual were in org, then the tag, :basic:, would suffice.  Just
> export only that tag.  But maybe that is more work instead of less?
>
> On 2010-04-28, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>> of the manual.
>>
>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>
>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>> to more confusion than relief.
>>
>>      http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>
>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>> and constantly updated document.
>>
>> Comments are welcome.
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>
> --
> Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb?
> A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25
> years]
> ==========
> Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html
>


-- 
Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years]
==========
Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html

Re: A shorter manual

[Matti De Craene]

> - 2.8 Drawers
> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>  (do beginners really need properties at all ??)


I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers).

If there is room for additional sections maybe:
- include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a
very good overview of org)
- include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and
getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on
Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who
started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction
might still be too cryptic (?)


--

Matti




On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes:
>
>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>>> of the manual.
>>>
>>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>>
>>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>>> to more confusion than relief.
>>>
>>>     http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>>
>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>>> and constantly updated document.
>>>
>>> Comments are welcome.
>
> Hi Carsten,
>
> I think this would be a good thing to have.
>
> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main manual
> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by
> texinfo format).
>
> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have done.
> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the following
> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-technical
> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual.
>
> - 2.8 Drawers
> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>  (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>
> Dan
>
>>
>> I think it's a great idea.  The R project has something called "An
>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual.
>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into learning a
>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative
>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does not,
>> not the least of which is the length of full manual.
>>
>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely beneficial,
>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document.
>>
>> --Erik
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

Re: A shorter manual

[Thomas S. Dye]

On Apr 28, 2010, at 7:27 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:

> Just realized the need for export to info.  So never mind.  And it was
> obvious anyway.
>
> On 2010-04-28, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Great idea.
>>
>> If the manual were in org, then the tag, :basic:, would suffice.   
>> Just
>> export only that tag.  But maybe that is more work instead of less?
>>
>> On 2010-04-28, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>>> of the manual.
>>>
>>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>>
>>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>>> to more confusion than relief.
>>>
>>>     http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>>
>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>>> and constantly updated document.
>>>
>>> Comments are welcome.
>>>
>>> - Carsten
>>>

Aloha all,

What is the shortest route from org to info?  Is it possible to  
convert the org files that make Worg manual pages to texinfo?

Tom

Re: A shorter manual

[Sebastian Rose]

>> If the manual were in org, then the tag, :basic:, would suffice.  Just
>> export only that tag.  But maybe that is more work instead of less?
>>
>> On 2010-04-28, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>>> of the manual.
>>>
>>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.


Great idea!

I hate to read more than neccessary :)

but...

> Just realized the need for export to info.  So never mind.  And it was
> obvius anyway.

I'd prefer to keep the full manual as texinfo file. It's so easy to
search in info files for what ever you're looking for.


  Sebastian

Re: A shorter manual

[Carsten Dominik]

On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote:

>> - 2.8 Drawers
>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>
>
> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers).
>
> If there is room for additional sections maybe:
> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a
> very good overview of org)
> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and
> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on
> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who
> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction
> might still be too cryptic (?)

Hi Dan, Matti,

I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet
as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also

I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document
to either of you or to another volunteer.  Maybe then we could
make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not
be able to spend much more time on it....

- Carsten

>
>
> --
>
> Matti
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison  
> <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes:
>>
>>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>>>> of the manual.
>>>>
>>>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>>>
>>>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>>>> to more confusion than relief.
>>>>
>>>>     http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>>>
>>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>>>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>>>> and constantly updated document.
>>>>
>>>> Comments are welcome.
>>
>> Hi Carsten,
>>
>> I think this would be a good thing to have.
>>
>> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main  
>> manual
>> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by
>> texinfo format).
>>
>> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have  
>> done.
>> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the  
>> following
>> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non- 
>> technical
>> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual.
>>
>> - 2.8 Drawers
>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>>  (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>>
>>> I think it's a great idea.  The R project has something called "An
>>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual.
>>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into  
>>> learning a
>>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative
>>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does  
>>> not,
>>> not the least of which is the length of full manual.
>>>
>>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely  
>>> beneficial,
>>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document.
>>>
>>> --Erik
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>

- Carsten

Re: A shorter manual

[Dan Davison]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote:
>
>>> - 2.8 Drawers
>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>>
>>
>> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers).
>>
>> If there is room for additional sections maybe:
>> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a
>> very good overview of org)
>> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and
>> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on
>> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who
>> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction
>> might still be too cryptic (?)
>
> Hi Dan, Matti,
>
> I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet
> as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also
>
> I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document
> to either of you or to another volunteer.

Hi Carsten,

I'm afraid I don't want to take responsibility for this (a predictable
position). Apart from anything else there are several areas of Org
that I don't know enough about. If there isn't a volunteer, perhaps we
could place this document on Worg, and someone could periodically review
the changes and judge whether they should be applied to the master copy
on the Org website? We could request on this list volunteers for someone
to make specific entries (e.g. adding a "Further reading" section for a
specific chapter).

Dan


>  Maybe then we could
> make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not
> be able to spend much more time on it....
>
> - Carsten
>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Matti
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison
>> <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>>>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>>>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>>>>> of the manual.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>>>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>>>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>>>>
>>>>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>>>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>>>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>>>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>>>>> to more confusion than relief.
>>>>>
>>>>>     http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>>>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>>>>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>>>>> and constantly updated document.
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments are welcome.
>>>
>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>
>>> I think this would be a good thing to have.
>>>
>>> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main
>>> manual
>>> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by
>>> texinfo format).
>>>
>>> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have
>>> done.
>>> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the
>>> following
>>> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-
>>> technical
>>> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual.
>>>
>>> - 2.8 Drawers
>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>>>  (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think it's a great idea.  The R project has something called "An
>>>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual.
>>>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into
>>>> learning a
>>>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative
>>>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does
>>>> not,
>>>> not the least of which is the length of full manual.
>>>>
>>>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely
>>>> beneficial,
>>>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document.
>>>>
>>>> --Erik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: A shorter manual

[Carsten Dominik]

On Apr 29, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Dan Davison wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote:
>>
>>>> - 2.8 Drawers
>>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>>>
>>>
>>> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers).
>>>
>>> If there is room for additional sections maybe:
>>> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a
>>> very good overview of org)
>>> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and
>>> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on
>>> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who
>>> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current  
>>> Introduction
>>> might still be too cryptic (?)
>>
>> Hi Dan, Matti,
>>
>> I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet
>> as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also
>>
>> I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document
>> to either of you or to another volunteer.
>
> Hi Carsten,
>
> I'm afraid I don't want to take responsibility for this (a predictable
> position).

Sure, I understand.

> Apart from anything else there are several areas of Org
> that I don't know enough about. If there isn't a volunteer, perhaps we
> could place this document on Worg, and someone could periodically  
> review
> the changes and judge whether they should be applied to the master  
> copy
> on the Org website? We could request on this list volunteers for  
> someone
> to make specific entries (e.g. adding a "Further reading" section  
> for a
> specific chapter).

Hmmm, I am not sure how efficient this would be.

I have it now down to 40 pages, with live links to the manual and to  
tutorials at the end of each chapter...

http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf

I guess I am done here - a volunteer con still take this up...

- Carsten

>
> Dan
>
>
>> Maybe then we could
>> make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not
>> be able to spend much more time on it....
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Matti
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison
>>> <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>>>>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>>>>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>>>>>> of the manual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>>>>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>>>>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>>>>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>>>>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>>>>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>>>>>> to more confusion than relief.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>>>>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>>>>>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>>>>>> and constantly updated document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments are welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>>
>>>> I think this would be a good thing to have.
>>>>
>>>> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main
>>>> manual
>>>> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not  
>>>> encouraged by
>>>> texinfo format).
>>>>
>>>> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have
>>>> done.
>>>> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the
>>>> following
>>>> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-
>>>> technical
>>>> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual.
>>>>
>>>> - 2.8 Drawers
>>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's a great idea.  The R project has something called "An
>>>>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete  
>>>>> manual.
>>>>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into
>>>>> learning a
>>>>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative
>>>>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does
>>>>> not,
>>>>> not the least of which is the length of full manual.
>>>>>
>>>>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely
>>>>> beneficial,
>>>>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Erik
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: A shorter manual

[Dan Davison]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> On Apr 29, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Dan Davison wrote:
>
>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote:
>>>
>>>>> - 2.8 Drawers
>>>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>>>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>>>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>>>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers).
>>>>
>>>> If there is room for additional sections maybe:
>>>> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a
>>>> very good overview of org)
>>>> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and
>>>> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on
>>>> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who
>>>> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current
>>>> Introduction
>>>> might still be too cryptic (?)
>>>
>>> Hi Dan, Matti,
>>>
>>> I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet
>>> as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also
>>>
>>> I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document
>>> to either of you or to another volunteer.
>>
>> Hi Carsten,
>>
>> I'm afraid I don't want to take responsibility for this (a predictable
>> position).
>
> Sure, I understand.
>
>> Apart from anything else there are several areas of Org
>> that I don't know enough about. If there isn't a volunteer, perhaps we
>> could place this document on Worg, and someone could periodically
>> review
>> the changes and judge whether they should be applied to the master
>> copy
>> on the Org website? We could request on this list volunteers for
>> someone
>> to make specific entries (e.g. adding a "Further reading" section
>> for a
>> specific chapter).
>
> Hmmm, I am not sure how efficient this would be.
>
> I have it now down to 40 pages, with live links to the manual and to
> tutorials at the end of each chapter...
>
> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf

That looks great. Having the links to Worg and other tutorials is really
nice.

I noticed a couple of typos in the live links:

- p.29  in John Wiegely's name
- p.36 "persentation"

and to split hairs
- p.33 "from the manual" -> "of the manual" for consistency

Dan




>
> I guess I am done here - a volunteer con still take this up...



>
> - Carsten
>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>> Maybe then we could
>>> make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not
>>> be able to spend much more time on it....
>>>
>>> - Carsten
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Matti
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison
>>>> <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages,  I am
>>>>>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
>>>>>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
>>>>>>> of the manual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I did a little experiment.  I took the manual and stripped
>>>>>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but
>>>>>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What remains are about 50 pages.  A document with the same
>>>>>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
>>>>>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
>>>>>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead
>>>>>>> to more confusion than relief.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
>>>>>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
>>>>>>> updates.  The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
>>>>>>> and constantly updated document.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Comments are welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this would be a good thing to have.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main
>>>>> manual
>>>>> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not
>>>>> encouraged by
>>>>> texinfo format).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have
>>>>> done.
>>>>> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the
>>>>> following
>>>>> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-
>>>>> technical
>>>>> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual.
>>>>>
>>>>> - 2.8 Drawers
>>>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>>>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>>>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>>>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's a great idea.  The R project has something called "An
>>>>>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete
>>>>>> manual.
>>>>>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into
>>>>>> learning a
>>>>>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative
>>>>>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does
>>>>>> not,
>>>>>> not the least of which is the length of full manual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely
>>>>>> beneficial,
>>>>>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Erik
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>>
>>>
>>> - Carsten
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: A shorter manual

[Samuel Wales]

Is there an HTML version?

-- 
Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years]
==========
Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html

Re: A shorter manual

[Samuel Wales]

On 2010-04-28, Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> wrote:
> I'd prefer to keep the full manual as texinfo file. It's so easy to
> search in info files for what ever you're looking for.

It would be easy in org, too.  But you'd have to have org export to
texinfo or info, which is probably difficult.

-- 
Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years]
==========
Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html

Re: A shorter manual

[Carsten Dominik]

On Apr 30, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:

> Is there an HTML version?

No yet, but there will be.

- Carsten

Re: A shorter manual

[Carsten Dominik]

On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote:

>> - 2.8 Drawers
>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>
>
> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers).
>
> If there is room for additional sections maybe:
> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a
> very good overview of org)
> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and
> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on
> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who
> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction
> might still be too cryptic (?)

Would you like to write that introduction?

- Carsten

Re: A shorter manual

[Carsten Dominik]

On Apr 30, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:

> Is there an HTML version?

http://orgmode.org/guide

- Carsten

Re: A shorter manual

[Matti De Craene]

> Would you like to write that introduction?

Sure, I'll put something together, either for the compact manual or for worg.

Will not be for this week though.

Kregs,

Matti


On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Carsten Dominik
<carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote:
>
>>> - 2.8 Drawers
>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment
>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages)
>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View
>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??)
>>
>>
>> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers).
>>
>> If there is room for additional sections maybe:
>> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a
>> very good overview of org)
>> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and
>> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on
>> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who
>> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction
>> might still be too cryptic (?)
>
> Would you like to write that introduction?
>
> - Carsten
>