From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id qBmOFDmQq2FC7QAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 16:58:49 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id eLU6EDmQq2HQKwAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 15:58:49 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEB403699E for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2021 16:58:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52028 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtXR2-0000a7-1h for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 10:58:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58196) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtXQJ-0000Zx-IL for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 10:58:03 -0500 Received: from mout-p-103.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.161]:56462) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtXQG-00019Y-M0 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 10:58:02 -0500 Received: from smtp102.mailbox.org (smtp102.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:3:0]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-103.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4J5vVD3GwszQjDt; Sat, 4 Dec 2021 16:57:56 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailbox.org; s=mail20150812; t=1638633474; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=zZ3k5J0q0ZgImZs2RegCmEjFpS3yS3p2WZ/OH+QHZaU=; b=j/8+57Ogi+Dh0NLJ/i6bYlFOdkJ4UYAsbntKBhUm8D05ETDWlTy+GZUXOrbGKh2HcwcwHD ho2mwQ/dvsj3/nXK9iT/OUFtSHc/O/anKL1Pbo8M/0JwmkeOiNNuCEiRFiUly4Tw4MoPGe YO/7XBr9i95TffyCswod2B+F8/tra+NtiUZpLsHwnoioluW/qA+gQ48QneiAEbfBom1PGv cWVEat+Zioj/HI8QXTtISPz27Jzm1L2ldHdVPhoHxp72MlvfmdBtMW//05ArAQjRl3WJxs AmzIJLQlmDosi4iCnkCu5sCTkEu7kYBwqGYLpYXXfwp4m5OK77ftK+eIHZOo0Q== Message-ID: <9525e029-a590-3f48-df64-ffb9176075d9@mailbox.org> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 16:57:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Org-syntax: Intra-word markup To: Max Nikulin , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <4897bc60-b74f-ccfd-e13e-9b89a1194fdf@mailbox.org> <87fsrbp673.fsf@gmail.com> <1ef0e093-c165-2a5f-954d-6a33b64c8ee9@mailbox.org> <87r1avgnpi.fsf@localhost> <878rx2bzhw.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: Denis Maier In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=80.241.56.161; envelope-from=denismaier@mailbox.org; helo=mout-p-103.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638633529; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=zZ3k5J0q0ZgImZs2RegCmEjFpS3yS3p2WZ/OH+QHZaU=; b=PVPaQn9xYEzXz+2os9CrO2tNft9OdYLzg6aMIiaypiQGtmopjPyHeK73UyUkm1I0Kj+QVA p1fBdIfZ5OMSdC9F7ImsFPoyhmmS7Z8t8zfSh997ufi1Uc99R3mT59b92MKBwn16msTMTl zoFii33yHZvYH4d4y6U/CMiaT/xz0jT77/pl4zmEcKedqX/TeNH3Q2TDDt/UQr48mDjS5X rt0C7G2N9SIZLTtmkhqnX+JRSztQ+GFxwffBhtcGU/8qS6TGjPZNe6q2bmYEyoGnLEZ2Va YTcKf9QCNDr9QGcx7SDGVHh1hk2xkuPVTcN3a4qPfDjhKkdARVR8mCc8PG6aVg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638633529; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=CGMeXPz+v3BjTPVYBmMHba6TCF5p0ilbq1EZOlnY/bYdXUi9ptIMFr+ak4guUc9d5fMZnM 4QtpXv6jB0ft64OlEZt8is6dpd+LGm7V3uQruYKrBveM4yu91wOqJv2oVRHlDQvqELGcoS /diTLWf7xKwKdbJHhlBJPgyVd3q2Y+f1MYuXZONYhj+Hpv4qxG4VKr0u4GjWVA3m/PbGcw rvA/mqLqwJ5pcIrhFuYzlAttkqEthO248894fzaXves5UbtdGCS14kbxSWVA2nrR8TEcdA bSMTGd7kWvzy/6WxKkvtSvNusNuo7OBav424ZJNjXn1tl5eH+YxsH4h4OzQyqA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b="j/8+57Og"; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.23 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b="j/8+57Og"; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: DEB403699E X-Spam-Score: -4.23 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 4+MMHcy1Bg3P Am 03.12.2021 um 15:24 schrieb Max Nikulin: > On 03/12/2021 02:03, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: >>> Denis Maier writes: >>> >>>> As for suggestions: If just using /intra/word creates ambiguities, what >>>> about the asciidoc solution? So //intra//word? >> >> I sympathize to the idea of intra-word emphasis, but the syntax above is >> going to cause some ambiguous situations. > > I suppose, some more general solution is required. > >> I do think the marker + zero-width space is one way to go. We could, as >> an improvement, consider zero-width spaces around emphasis markers to be >> part of the markup, and replace them along during export. > > Zero-space characters adjacent to emphasis markers is a better idea than > replacing any zero space. However I agree with Juan Manuel that white > space characters, especially completely invisible (I am not Eli who sees > such special characters by moving cursor through them) should not be > overloaded. From my point of view, it is acceptable to use zero width > spaces as a workaround but they should not become official part of Org > syntax. > >> Another solution is to introduce a less-subtle, but less prone to >> ambiguity, syntax, e.g., >> >>                    /{bold}/markup   or   /|bold|/markup >> >> where /{ }/  or /|  |/ become "extended" markers. > > More explicit markup leaves less room for ambiguities, and I like the > idea due to this reason. On the other hand it diverges from principle of > lightweight markup. The almost only special character in TeX is "\", > HTML has three ones "&<>" with simple escape rules. Org uses many > special characters to avoid verbosity and requires some tricks to escape > them. Markers like "\{" make Org more verbose but do not make it more > strict, a lot of things still rely on heuristics. > > I have an idea what can be done when some special markup is required > that is not fit into current syntax. Unfortunately some new constructs > should be introduced anyway: inline objects and multiline elements that > represent simplified result of parsed Org structures: > >     ((italic "intra") "word") > > wrapped with some markup. It should satisfy any special needs (and even > should allow to create invalid impossible constructs). Maybe idea of > combination of lightweight markup and low-level blocks better suits for > some other project with more expressive internal representation. In Org > it may become the most hated feature. I have to admit I like this idea. That brings a lot of flexibility to accomodate even the most obscure needs, yet it makes the discussion about escape characters or new symbols much less pressing. After all, most markup languages face the same problem, i.e., special characters are limited, and beyond the usual /*_ the meaning of characters becomes much less obvious. This idea reminds me a bit of Scribble/Racket where every document is just inverted code, which makes it possible to insert arbitrary Racket code in your prose... Denis > > >