From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id cE6ODa5xhmCFTAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:54:22 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id GK1oCa5xhmAyDwAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 07:54:22 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 690EA2E2A1 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:54:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:40072 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1law4S-0006zv-Jt for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 03:54:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49500) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1law3T-0006wF-Aw for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 03:53:19 -0400 Received: from mout-p-103.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.161]:30648) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1law3Q-0008Sz-KY for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 03:53:19 -0400 Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:2:0]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-103.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FTHFP0hQCzQjwm; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:53:13 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailbox.org; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :mime-version:date:date:message-id:from:from:references:subject :subject:received; s=mail20150812; t=1619423586; bh=7H3hME3MxtJI 4pbA+fJETykGpBnbjeuGV6FIvdY6scM=; b=ayfAcQtoKhvIZ1OCLc0UWvY665sO MUmJH6yXZ3ReA6LATIrDQjD4OoZV4vX5+sV+D2yKDa74rUB/Q/IBK6WfRpFOXnim Lu+dDf3u5Jn/FJINWceXzadAPA+WDWoQf8YfpZoyOFdJehIga15oDXpHz02Kkly4 ROuK0pbhzxf9mWhwKnPhOQEWDZHHCSFu757dCYVJhKKRHKPcOrpvCNH4RKjON/j+ /hf4HSF2urNwk71u5cNDRAqQfZVs5FmvTnx+7k+mE4bDn2OfAHiEAVRYKrQCJf5Q Hk4Ev9ECFdDjUiRyMaLht2aUrLOiEqfRiBoEZGIjq+PG39Vqp/pcv7+J3w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailbox.org; s=mail20150812; t=1619423587; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=GyZal94fXHAxNEEi0UcwOi49Ey/DbD9EcnfDwu+tkeQ=; b=aSG0ULy3TjkmFjnec4HLHz7fi8IaLiV7jBt8yREpoozmRS8A7dhFmVK+Iy1qj9pa3fVdF6 gfsdrXWmtKkodb6cnvhbhPQX2cmfq41k+xstXrwl/+e+EQLLPD6c+VNraC9VzQ2WDnaXb6 3zSJCsm9FFKAiH6hlYT9zJGtqWZvIjmJkLS/RPzw9bHMHjXEk4GQNGBfxoIPl+BNCD7GDA iGup3q0zylGxDpiMbhcPwznXDCe26oG9KJ7biqV/t86awy694nkQ8KUmF5N0zR3plTHdJK qAhJ03Eu+CkOJp3eZkCVX8ZOsLeJQdHi2ZIW+HSmEZsetiItjYcXIo3N98Mvtg== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.241]) by spamfilter04.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter04.heinlein-hosting.de [80.241.56.122]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id 6y2_lM9ll37x; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:53:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: org-cite: make 'suppress-author' a citation 'style' To: Bruce D'Arcus , =?UTF-8?Q?Andr=c3=a1s_Simonyi?= Cc: org-mode-email References: <87k0orfw4y.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <8735vffnra.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: Denis Maier Message-ID: <936a4d73-6d16-cb91-f897-1b8037a9cc3a@mailbox.org> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:53:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MBO-SPAM-Probability: ** X-Rspamd-Score: 2.13 / 15.00 / 15.00 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E44EE17BD X-Rspamd-UID: c876dc Received-SPF: pass client-ip=80.241.56.161; envelope-from=denismaier@mailbox.org; helo=mout-p-103.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619423661; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=GyZal94fXHAxNEEi0UcwOi49Ey/DbD9EcnfDwu+tkeQ=; b=o+UYV89Ffm8i8UMFuejpQt9DPlicb7mBIQaAfhq+fFhcWUqfryVz8B9ggyNvW1MKm9JRY7 G+xLg3orxbmCjtQ0a//0orl9I01bSXOCOenEvHM6YXRdVre6kV4WHJ9lQrqyF2IQtWCX/5 sy3cNqvZ94VHe1ml0PTA8ttOT4EGVMYBxHERxgLinCJ7MIB5jB3n0ZJ45P7pH0PdNKLj2V Z0ts3xNLVHGfciFMpf6MvjxdmgUcefAir/BRKRHXNnsDd82EFCU8EhlaOSCQv0n5cU4ZeE AgYLYqbGfYIgF8tUfeobRp4baRaITcYRaZhNr+V3ob1jL5r9K9hcFU4ugkiQ5w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619423661; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=cBgEmGm6QJINF7bcbHjkjDXvf1C0B8DCx1yyt/P2O2GlQl+Qioi1GEWfQME5PQxLZknDHT IV1lglRl0Yp59BE1ZIw7ViSV5fvqxhSsXFyBr/yCq06Op67WpMlrdrEXb7dnFKSum9ygdh 1hgov6oRJjY6LZsqQzjo5vJRw9cRoQ684+lOEyNbk5qg2NYosVzfSJ1sb2DA7Zn+NDiL5K gr8C3Pa5GgC9A827dRi00xFFehfn9f8BHVAQWWz5NMRZ6PPlLonMGq/eoQpLvdovL/7mzg k6K+OpG1lMI3T4JA6aziOtP6gdaKU+Cvej7LgFzA7zINBkdB6I4+uZsaZwlG6A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=ayfAcQto; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=aSG0ULy3; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.15 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=ayfAcQto; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=aSG0ULy3; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 690EA2E2A1 X-Spam-Score: -3.15 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 6eVVtQDLFcG3 Hi, just some general remarks on that issue: I tend to think that treating "suppress-author" as a mode/style/command would indeed be appropriate. As the minus shorthand is inherited from pandoc, it might be worth pointing out that pandoc's syntax owes quite a lot to the markdown philosophy, which is also emphasized by pandoc: > Markdown is intended to be as easy-to-read and easy-to-write as is feasible. > > Readability, however, is emphasized above all else (https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#philosophy) That is, markdown tries to use a syntax as concise as possible, without verbose commands and such. See e.g. this discussion: https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/ydG9CI_XEEU/m/3LHxvp23BAAJ The price for this is a certain opaqueness, and, to a certain degree, a loss of precision, expressiveness and extensibility. Anyway, back to the modes question: #+begin_example [@doe] [-@doe] @doe @doe [34] -@doe [34] #+end_example gives us in pandos AST: #+begin_pandoc_ast [Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], citationSuffix = [], citationMode = NormalCitation, citationNoteNum = 1, citationHash = 0}] [Str "[@doe]"]] ,Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], citationSuffix = [], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, citationNoteNum = 2, citationHash = 0}] [Str "[-@doe]"]] ,Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], citationSuffix = [], citationMode = AuthorInText, citationNoteNum = 3, citationHash = 0}] [Str "@doe"]] ,Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], citationSuffix = [Str "34"], citationMode = AuthorInText, citationNoteNum = 4, citationHash = 0}] [Str "@doe",Space,Str "[34]"]] ,Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], citationSuffix = [Str "34"], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, citationNoteNum = 5, citationHash = 0}] [Str "@doe",Space,Str "[34]"]]] #+end_pandoc_ast So, suppress author is essentially a mode here. FWIW, it might also be interesting to look at biblatex: biblatex has a textcite command: \textcite{doe2021} => Doe (2021) Now, if you want to cite multiple entries, each with prefix and suffix, you'll need a special variant \textcites! \textcites[12]{foo}[34]{bar} argue ... => Foo (2021, p. 12) and Bar (2021, p. 34) argue ... I'm not sure how that fits into the org context. Interestingly, I couldn't find an easy way to get "Doe (2021, p.34; see also Smith 2020) ... argues". You'd probably have to resort to lower level commands such as \citeauthor in combination with other commands. \citeauthor{doe} \parencites*[34]{doe}{smith} Denis Am 25.04.2021 um 22:12 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: > On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 3:48 PM András Simonyi wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 at 14:50, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: >>> How would you deal with these? >>> >>> #+begin_example >>> [cite/-:@doe20; @doe21] >>> [cite/-:@doe20; see also @smith19] >>> [cite/text:@doe20; see also @smith19] >>> #+end_example >>> >>> My thought is you want to treat the author of the first listed cite as >>> suppressed, or placed in-text in the last case, but that you wouldn't >>> touch the other author? >> >> yes, exactly -- since it's difficult to see (at least for me) how the >> context could supply the author information for the subsequent cites. > > So the output for the first one would be: > > (2020, 2021) > > ..., and not: > > (2020, Doe 2021) > > As in, you would suppress the author not on the first cite (what you > wrote in the original reply), but the author of the first cite? > > To me, that's the only wrinkle of having this a citation-level style; > that a processor would need to be smart enough to handle cases like > that, for output styles that require it. > > But otherwise it's easier and more efficient for the user. > > Bruce > >