From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Richard Lawrence Subject: Re: Citation syntax and ODT Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 20:11:48 -0800 Message-ID: <87zj85s1vf.fsf@berkeley.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41320) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YPkNs-000508-NJ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 23:12:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YPkNp-0005dY-HO for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 23:12:40 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:38219) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YPkNp-0005cX-AE for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 23:12:37 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YPkNm-0004x1-OB for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Feb 2015 05:12:34 +0100 Received: from c-67-169-117-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([67.169.117.151]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2015 05:12:34 +0100 Received: from richard.lawrence by c-67-169-117-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2015 05:12:34 +0100 List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Cc: Vaidheeswaran Hi Vaidheeswaran, Thanks for your input about citations! Vaidheeswaran writes: > Those working on the citation syntax should make it clear that the > "lowest common" cite syntax does NOT also IMPOSE (or GUARANTEE) a > specific style on the produced document. > > When I say this, I specifically mean: > > 1. I want my citation and references to be carried over FAITHFULLY to > the exported document. > > 2. I DON'T CARE how (1) is styled. I'm afraid I don't quite understand your concern here. What does it mean to export a citation faithfully, but without imposing a particular style (or without giving it any specific formatting properties)? My understanding (based on the LaTeX world) is that a `style' defines a broad set of conventions for formatting citations and bibliographies in the output document. For example, a style might define citations to be author-year, or numerical. Within a style, individual citations can still have different formatting properties, such as whether it appears inside parentheses or not. We haven't really discussed how styles should be specified (yet), or the formatting of bibliographies. But we have been discussing a syntax that lets you specify those formatting properties which commonly differ between individual citations. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > The above observations would translate to: > > The Cite object in it's SIMPLEST form specifies just a citekey (or a > set of citekeys). The Cite-object is qualified with a footnote saying > that any key-value pair -- including "type" -- that is specified with > Cite object MAY BE IGNORED by a backend. > If I understand what you're saying here correctly, I think this is too little to expect. If *all* the formatting information in a citation can be ignored by any backend, there isn't very much to be gained by having a citation syntax in Org. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Note that I am not speaking against Bells and Whistles. I am only > saying that Bells and Whistles MUST NOT be imposed upon a backend like > ODT where the available tools are NOT AS RICH OR AS MATURE AS that > available with other backends like HTML or LaTeX. I don't really know anything about ODT. In particular, I don't know if ODT makes room for a distinction between the overall citation style and the formatting properties of individual citations. Can you say a bit more about what you think its limitations are? Obviously, we can't impose anything on the formatting of citations which the output document format is incapable of expressing. But I can't think of anything we've discussed for the main syntax that seems likely to be inexpressible in ODT. Have you had a chance to read the proposal that I sent around last weekend? Are there specific features of the main syntax described there (ignoring the `%%(...)' part, which it now appears will be dropped) that you don't think ODT or other backends can support? If so, I think that is a concern, and should be discussed. Best, Richard