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Dye" To: Jean Louis Cc: "Thomas S. Dye" , Tim Cross , Ihor Radchenko , Daryl Manning , rjhorn@alum.mit.edu, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 06:23:05 -1000 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87zgabj0l1.fsf@tsdye.online> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box2035.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tsdye.online X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 50.113.33.148 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1pJH2K-0025c7-FK X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: cpe-50-113-33-148.hawaii.res.rr.com (poto-foou.tsdye.online) [50.113.33.148]:37598 X-Source-Auth: tsd@tsdye.online X-Email-Count: 7 X-Source-Cap: dHNkeWVvbmw7dHNkeWVvbmw7Ym94MjAzNS5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Received-SPF: pass client-ip=67.222.38.55; envelope-from=tsd@tsdye.online; helo=progateway7-pub.mail.pro1.eigbox.com X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674319757; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=an/D2zXPQBXZU5ZXPHhGf7x0eeKcaAxzFtOKnEuAcs/3XmsCxhDPTcOT565IeRnN7YFKEa GD0XrnoAeli/+YQUiLrAC9RZJ1EOvvpMgUzmoJ1REd20Tku4dnVZDmhcDhkEdakAQokCrb BUCietvXfNmaQwgwOzt851qZiNJInjcqFJoZtmj0dq307A7HGnFyoaAZYJ6JqS/7vxcBXI 4S692AX+EwsM2oX4zFILk/MrM3GwUTcJWvfjcLamFgma4ihpGmqIKtciyu3x+6IfnSr3/2 To8+HSb4tIytTcqeswcl4ATSisvWUNi8zCUyfWgKq+5m0OrF4jynMIW8pBc9ng== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=cPn3u7BC; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674319757; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=8LLjTguavEIrAN5Db1Kaw2kbOfIUIzBGTQEGSZ9geuw=; b=PQZDu2k0b1hk956Au7t5EVe+UJbFYd94rzKw3VS9mJ9Xq/dV3Zk9x/78z2pHbowwZUx7EW l1G4hzkLwScts8rVE1b8twwQOj02IChAwGdjDGl+zWAMBd68m7V5BLZrQS9JtmAcSpNcK7 E2vMR35IwM4wTMKXDiLYEVF/+4YwrTGSPg+T5AI4Yz8oFIZ0ViuwlDT5/icjcPiyj6r4Gi lstOBVAj+4hMXIR8zrXZR6/YDaU/d/PT+YKvmvbsVMiDNnWZY4y0tTjaWhrNsRhF819R4O tPnRN6rNsejRaMVOmXK3q8H3j98rr8W8zyZBm0OOKor1DqL15C+A1PbuVvhOHQ== X-Spam-Score: 1.30 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: F41D3108D5 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=cPn3u7BC; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 1.30 X-TUID: fqRP9BpraxjC Aloha Jean Louis, Jean Louis writes: > * Thomas S. Dye [2023-01-19 19:23]: >> Only occurrences require absolute time, UTC. Events do not. >> They >> follow the user's space/time. > > I understand you got your context specific terminology, from the > mentioned book, where you are making philosophically different > distinction between occurence and event as opposed to > distinction by > its ordinary meaning in English. Ordinary meanings are often polysemous, so context is important. A big part of philosophy is limiting the confusion caused by polysemy. Ramsey was specifically concerned to distinguish two senses of the word event because he was certain that using event with this polysemy would sow confusion. > What really matters > ------------------- > > What matters is aid to users' life. > > When arguing, try to make a checklist and TEST it: > > - [ ] can user easily understand the time displayed? > > - [ ] can user relate the displayed time to his local time > without > hesitation? > > - [ ] is that program that programmer creates beneficial to user > or to > programmer, or theoretician of absolutes, rights and wrongs? > > How to test it? > > Usability Testing 101: > https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-testing-101/ > I'm hopeful that Ramsey's distinction between event and occurrence contributes to what really matters. How that distinction is communicated to the user most effectively is an open question, IMO. > > Today there is in computing pretty much agreement that: > ------------------------------------------------------- > > - All computer time should be stored to UTC, UTC being basis for > any > other computations > > - System libraries have (or should have) various configurations > > - Computer users should be shown their local time > I was thinking that Org timestamps should record the information needed to let Org calculate user's local time so it is synchronous with other users' local times. This ought to make it possible to take into account unforeseen, arbitrary changes in timezone (as when a legislative body imposes or rescinds DST) that take place between the time an event is scheduled and when it takes place. Using absolute time (UTC) stored before the arbitrary change in timezone will cause problems. Of course, arbitrary changes in timezone do not affect an occurrence, so storing UTC in this instance is correct. > > * Overview of noun occurrence > ----------------------------- > > > The noun occurrence has 2 senses (first 2 from tagged texts) > 1. (29) happening, occurrence, occurrent, natural event -- (an > event that happens) > 2. (3) occurrence -- (an instance of something occurring; "a > disease of frequent occurrence"; "the occurrence (or presence) > of life on other planets") > > * Overview of noun event > > The noun event has 4 senses (first 2 from tagged texts) > 1. (62) event -- (something that happens at a given place and > time) > 2. (6) event, case -- (a special set of circumstances; "in that > event, the first possibility is excluded"; "it may rain in which > case the picnic will be canceled") > 3. event -- (a phenomenon located at a single point in > space-time; the fundamental observational entity in relativity > theory) > 4. consequence, effect, outcome, result, event, issue, upshot -- > (a phenomenon > that follows and is caused by some previous phenomenon; "the > magnetic effect was > greater when the rod was lengthwise"; "his decision had > depressing consequences > for business"; "he acted very wise after the event") Yes, you can see all the polysemy. Also, you can see why Ramsey was happy with event, and less so with occurrence. The important point is the distinction he proposed, not the words used to express it. I think the distinction is germane to understanding what information is needed to let Org calculate user's local time so it is synchronous with other users' local times. To my mind, it helps bring order out of complexity. All the best, Tom -- Thomas S. Dye https://tsdye.online/tsdye