From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Rasmus Subject: Re: Allowing loose ordering in Org files Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:47:08 +0100 Message-ID: <87wptrt68z.fsf@gmx.us> References: <871tc83p01.fsf@flynn.nichework.com> <84io5j1k5h.fsf@gmail.com> <84611j19hk.fsf@gmail.com> <5638C2A1.2090801@iancu.ch> <87h9l32gfc.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87d1vq3mh4.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874mh23iw0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <878u6eu5wg.fsf@Rainer.invalid> <315DDEDC-1BD9-4680-A8C8-B36821EB931C@gmail.com> <874mh2u2w0.fsf@Rainer.invalid> <87ziytyl3z.fsf@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41035) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvqXR-0003g8-7n for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 12:47:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvqXO-0000Ui-GN for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 12:47:29 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:54288) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvqXO-0000UI-2d for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 12:47:26 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvqXH-0006LA-A5 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:47:19 +0100 Received: from 62.80.108.10 ([62.80.108.10]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:47:19 +0100 Received: from rasmus by 62.80.108.10 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:47:19 +0100 List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Hi, I share my personal views on this below. John Wiegley writes: >>>>>> John Wiegley writes: > >> I spoke to Nicolas directly and he mentioned that a goal for syntax >> regularity is to make it possible to reliably read and manipulate Org files >> outside of Emacs. >> >> For this I *am* willing to give up order independence of PROPERTIES. Having >> a customization option would needlessly increases the number of >> possibilities external processors must consider, and so I retract my >> request. > > I've had time this weekend to rethink my feature request, and I realized that > even machine-friendly formatting is something I should be able to give up, to > have an Org that works better for me. > > What has always made Org great (to me) is that it's a rather "light" overlay > on a plain old text file. What structure it does enforce -- say, the actual > syntax of drawers -- has always felt fairly "fluid". > > Lately there seems to be a push to sacrifice some of this freedom in order to > gain efficiency and regularity. I imagine this is for the benefit of machine > parsers; but what if one doesn't use any machine parsers? Org never asked me > to give up flexibility for unknown benefits before. This is one concern. Another concern is adhere to the "Org syntax", which I guess is what you mean by regularity. There are other implementations of Org. For instance, Github and Gitlab display Org files via org-ruby (AFAIK). If the claim was, that there is a strong desire to formalize and stick to the Org syntax, I would agree. Furthermore, I would claim this is a good thing. http://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html#Property_Drawers An alternative is a freer take on syntax, such as how MD has evolved, which IMO is a bit annoying. > It should be asked whether users want to trade formatting freedom for those > benefits. If it has been asked, I missed that discussion. So unless it's an > heavy maintenance burden to allow floating properties, for example, I don't > see why I, as a user, shouldn't be allowed to make that choice. That’s a fair point. > To those who repeat the performance argument: This is an opt-in only request. > It is not about changing the performance of default Org, or making files more > difficult to parse outside of Emacs for everyone. I disagree with your last claim. Rasmus -- It was you, Jezebel, it was you