From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 835xHhvBT2GFswAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 02:38:51 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id wLBrGRvBT2H+OQAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 00:38:51 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E45BECE5F for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 02:38:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47784 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mUIBt-00033v-W4 for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 20:38:50 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59848) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mUIAr-00033n-2w for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 20:37:45 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:40064) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mUIAp-0008EU-AC for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 20:37:44 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mUIAn-000AeB-Kx for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 02:37:41 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org From: Adam Porter Subject: Re: [Worg] Proposing a few CSS changes Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 19:37:35 -0500 Message-ID: <87wnn4npdc.fsf@alphapapa.net> References: <87fstud7ho.fsf@alphapapa.net> <87pmswe7ur.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geo-emacs-orgmode@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1632616730; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=p9AEbgwIbrkc01Tr+3Xd4OpmWRm3627Ex/2LEPt5Q/k=; b=VkRQINd0ZekN0pKPaGeH/lWL9ZL2DsLF/baEZ6l2c6h4jpMOjmAC01UEUy6SqXVxGh6ET6 zLH5nXu7XjIzeZJ7iKghaKpnzkwlVh7V5PWO+eddX6p4kaW1bPR9nu/7l67hsK5XOij2ER s6DJySxmq06S+evncpIlM8iSEyRv6SKmwcIHNtxsTX1rGgDub12bpruXKeiJpT1oiI6Z/1 uPZbTgzBMJNfvrkp1LcuxU/8FU0VdPnJwheWjIHnhKErm39zhzoPQKeRTNuVDs/Y5qJAd/ kKlkqBN4MOE2Gz4/gaW/gM3qpY0tRH2JLLMj2E0KcbgqHrphc+ijTLpyMjmvcA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1632616731; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=flsrSBEMo0BPD/HVVW0iY3Y8/SE90JBB1ReG0hAs5qTIdKJIxGkSm0wIyA++k7uk2e+pv3 cV9mlf9D48uBzmTzJjmP4brolOgsGEHM/HfzY8p5HhvFLF6Fr68hIybco3wFT2vd848mtI aiyfc/dJmMSBUe8JILu7hAO66M4mH38sPf2Q5iVZ5c4zQJkI4Y0xzhgg9HKjHne/GnD3hH RtlvSZ56eX+XuTElFMcsyxcyDjkCxU5MeSJfhyEs2qKv1G1u2cJx0bv38s7QBCZ8Sngdui IbqczGUt2i0tOXpBSvigFsIbRE+jVCnqm3uJChWcvRU1Zog01PX6W+1cufUfXA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.89 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E45BECE5F X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: Vrn5Hct3lgOS Hi Timothy, Timothy writes: > I’m a big fan of the shift to a fixed em-based max width. However, I’m not quite > sold on a few of the other changes, for instance the font change. While it does > vary, I must say than in particular I find the default serifed font of browsers > somewhat unattractive. Have you considered instead a sans-serif system font > stack? For example, this is what I used on the homepage: > ┌──── > │ -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, San Francisco, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Ubuntu, Roboto, Noto, Segoe UI, Arial, sans-serif; > └──── I think the default serif font varies by platform, e.g. MacOS browsers will use a much different one than Windows ones. As well, platform-based differences in font rendering (especially between MacOS, Windows, and GNU/Linux) have a significant effect on the end result. IMHO, I prefer not to "chase" issues like this by trying to account for them in CSS. This is why I prefer to remove font specifications for documentation pages: let the user decide. I find it frustrating when I've configured my browser to use a readable font for long documents, but the site "commandeers" the font to something that may only look nice and readable on the author's system. As for serif vs sans-serif, I think serif fonts are much easier to read, and AFAIK "research" backs this up. :) That's not the only consideration, of course, and I wouldn't suggest changing the main Org site to use a serif font. But for wiki/documentation sites, I think serifs are a better choice. But if we remove the font specification altogether, users who prefer sans-serif fonts and use that setting in their browsers will see sans-serif. I think that, for long texts and documentation, it's important to let the user control the appearance of main body text as much as possible. > Regarding the header colour, while I’m not much of a fan of the original grey, > perhaps this would be a chance to introduce some visual ties with the rest of > the site and the logo, for example by setting the heading colour to `#587e72' (the > dark gree from the Org logo). I think that'd be nice, yes. > I also tend to find the default font size slightly to small on most browsers. > I’d be in favour of bumping up the base fontsize to `1.2rem' and changing the > width restriction from `60em' to `60rem' so it remains constant. I'll push back on this change strongly. :) I really hate it when sites increase the default font size for body text. I've configured my browsers to use the font size that's most readable and useful for me. There seems to be an "epidemic" of sites increasing the default font size nowadays; sometimes only one or two paragraphs are visible on a single screen of text. Again, I think this is an attribute we should leave entirely to the users to configure. > Lastly, on padding, I feel you may have been a bit over-zealous in your removal > of padding from headlines. IMO a bit more space helps visually separate sections > and let them “breath”, and browsers defaults tend to pack things a bit more > densely than I would. I could live with adding a little bit of padding back, but not too much. There's already way too much whitespace on the Web. ;) If you like, I'll prepare a new "patch" and post screenshots so we can try to reach consensus. -- Thanks, Adam