Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays

Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays

[Ben Finney]

Howdy all,

How can I set an event in Org mode that repeats every month, on a
specific weekday, on a week counted from the start of the month?

For example:

  * every month on the first Tuesday of the month.
  * every month on the third Sunday of the month.
  * every first and third Wednesday of the month.

Taking “first Tuesday of the month”, if I set it this month on
<2009-11-15 Sun>, it should next repeat on <2009-12-20 Sun> and so on
each month. These do not do what I want:

  * <2009-11-15 Sun +1m>
  * <2009-11-08 Sun ++1m>
  * <2009-11-08 Sun .+1m>

    Each of these next repeats on <2009-12-15 Tue>, the wrong date.

How can I specify a repeating event to Org mode that achieves what I
described above?

-- 
 \     “Nature is trying very hard to make us succeed, but nature does |
  `\       not depend on us. We are not the only experiment.” —Richard |
_o__)                                   Buckminster Fuller, 1978-04-30 |
Ben Finney

Re: Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays

[Matt Lundin]

Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> writes:

> Howdy all,
>
> How can I set an event in Org mode that repeats every month, on a
> specific weekday, on a week counted from the start of the month?
>
> For example:
>
>   * every month on the first Tuesday of the month.
>   * every month on the third Sunday of the month.
>   * every first and third Wednesday of the month.
>
> Taking “first Tuesday of the month”, if I set it this month on
> <2009-11-15 Sun>, it should next repeat on <2009-12-20 Sun> and so on
> each month. These do not do what I want:
>
>   * <2009-11-15 Sun +1m>
>   * <2009-11-08 Sun ++1m>
>   * <2009-11-08 Sun .+1m>
>
>     Each of these next repeats on <2009-12-15 Tue>, the wrong date.
>
> How can I specify a repeating event to Org mode that achieves what I
> described above?

From the org manual:

,----[8.1. Timestamps, deadlines, and scheduling]
| DIARY-STYLE SEXP ENTRIES
|      For more complex date specifications, Org mode supports using the
|      special sexp diary entries implemented in the Emacs calendar/diary
|      package.  For example
| 
|           * The nerd meeting on every 2nd Thursday of the month
|             <%%(diary-float t 4 2)>
`----

Here's how to schedule the examples above:

* First Tuesday of month
<%%(diary-float t 2 1)>

* Third Sunday of month
<%%(diary-float t 0 3)>

* First or third Wednesday of month
<%%(or (diary-float t 3 1) (diary-float t 3 3))>

Best,
Matt

Re: Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays

[Ben Finney]

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:

> Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> writes:
>
> > How can I set an event in Org mode that repeats every month, on a
> > specific weekday, on a week counted from the start of the month?
[…]

> > Taking “first Tuesday of the month”, if I set it this month on
> > <2009-11-15 Sun>, it should next repeat on <2009-12-20 Sun> and so
> > on each month.
>
> From the org manual:
>
> ,----[8.1. Timestamps, deadlines, and scheduling]
> | DIARY-STYLE SEXP ENTRIES
> |      For more complex date specifications, Org mode supports using the
> |      special sexp diary entries implemented in the Emacs calendar/diary
> |      package.  For example
> | 
> |           * The nerd meeting on every 2nd Thursday of the month
> |             <%%(diary-float t 4 2)>
> `----

Ah. Where can I find documentation on “the special sexp diary entries
implemented in the Emacs calendar/diary package”?

> Here's how to schedule the examples above:
>
> * First Tuesday of month
> <%%(diary-float t 2 1)>
>
> * Third Sunday of month
> <%%(diary-float t 0 3)>
>
> * First or third Wednesday of month
> <%%(or (diary-float t 3 1) (diary-float t 3 3))>

Hmm. That makes the entry unreadable as a date+time. One of the main
advantages of the usual Org date+time specifications is they're
perfectly readable even to people who know nothing about Org, Emacs, or
Lisp. Is there a way to get a readable format that still behaves as I
described?

-- 
 \     “I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in |
  `\   my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.” —Emo Philips |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

Re: Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays

[Matt Lundin]

Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> writes:

> Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:
>
>> Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> writes:
>>
>> > How can I set an event in Org mode that repeats every month, on a
>> > specific weekday, on a week counted from the start of the month?
> […]
>
>> > Taking “first Tuesday of the month”, if I set it this month on
>> > <2009-11-15 Sun>, it should next repeat on <2009-12-20 Sun> and so
>> > on each month.
>>
>> From the org manual:
>>
>> ,----[8.1. Timestamps, deadlines, and scheduling]
>> | DIARY-STYLE SEXP ENTRIES
>> |      For more complex date specifications, Org mode supports using the
>> |      special sexp diary entries implemented in the Emacs calendar/diary
>> |      package.  For example
>> | 
>> |           * The nerd meeting on every 2nd Thursday of the month
>> |             <%%(diary-float t 4 2)>
>> `----
>
> Ah. Where can I find documentation on “the special sexp diary entries
> implemented in the Emacs calendar/diary package”?

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Sexp-Diary-Entries.html

You can also type C-h i inside emacs and navigate to "Calendar/Diary".

>
>> Here's how to schedule the examples above:
>>
>> * First Tuesday of month
>> <%%(diary-float t 2 1)>
>>
>> * Third Sunday of month
>> <%%(diary-float t 0 3)>
>>
>> * First or third Wednesday of month
>> <%%(or (diary-float t 3 1) (diary-float t 3 3))>
>
> Hmm. That makes the entry unreadable as a date+time. One of the main
> advantages of the usual Org date+time specifications is they're
> perfectly readable even to people who know nothing about Org, Emacs, or
> Lisp. 

Well, yes. But not for every possible niche usage. Org-mode provides
human readable syntax for the majority of scenarios, but allows power
users to harness the capabilities of emacs and elisp for the rest.

> Is there a way to get a readable format that still behaves as I
> described?

Not that I know of. But since this is org-mode, you could add a note
under the diary sexp explaining what it represents.

You'd have to ask Carsten to implement a new timestamp syntax. What
would you propose as a more readable designation?

- Matt

Re: Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays

[Ben Finney]

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:

> Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> writes:
>
> > Hmm. [a sexp] makes the entry unreadable as a date+time. One of the
> > main advantages of the usual Org date+time specifications is they're
> > perfectly readable even to people who know nothing about Org, Emacs,
> > or Lisp.
>
> Well, yes. But not for every possible niche usage.

That's partly my point: “second Tuesday of the month” isn't niche, it is
pretty common, I would have thought.

> Org-mode provides human readable syntax for the majority of scenarios,
> but allows power users to harness the capabilities of emacs and elisp
> for the rest.

Much appreciated.

> > Is there a way to get a readable format that still behaves as I
> > described?
>
> Not that I know of. But since this is org-mode, you could add a note
> under the diary sexp explaining what it represents.
>
> You'd have to ask Carsten to implement a new timestamp syntax. What
> would you propose as a more readable designation?

How about this:

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m Tue>
    Repeat each month, on the second Tuesday of the month. Calculated
    because this date is the second Tuesday of the month, and the repeat
    weekday is specified.

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m>
    Repeat each month, on the 13th day of the month. Calculated because
    this date is the 8th of the month, and the repeat weekday is not
    specified.

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m Fri>
    Invalid, since this date is not on a Friday.

Or, rather than introducing syntax that makes it easy to put invalid
syntax:

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m dow>
    Repeat each month, on the second Tuesday of the month. Calculated
    because this date is the second Tuesday of the month, and “dow” is
    the specified repeat type.

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m dom>
    Repeat each month, on the 13th day of the month. Calculated because
    this date is the 8th of the month, and “dom” is the specified repeat
    type.

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m>
    Repeat each month, on the 13th day of the month. Calculated because
    this date is the 8th of the month, and “dom” is the default repeat
    type.

I somewhat prefer this latter syntax, because it uses a brief keyword,
allowing for other keywords in the future if a case can be made for
other repeat types.

-- 
 \        “Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take |
  `\          for granted … but to weigh and consider.” —Francis Bacon |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

Re: Re: Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays

[Giovanni Ridolfi]

--- Dom 8/11/09, Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> ha scritto:
> Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:
> 
> > Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au>
> > writes:
> >
> That's partly my point: “second Tuesday of the month”
> isn't niche, it is
> pretty common, I would have thought.
> 
> How about this:
> 
>     <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m Tue>

Does the "++1m" help? : 

** TODO LUG meeting
   DEADLINE: <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 ++1m Tue>

   Marking this DONE will shift the date by at least one month,
   but also by as many months as it takes to get this date into
   the future.  However, it stays on a Tuesday, even 
   if you called and marked it done on Saturday.

Giovanni

Re: Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays

[Ben Finney]

Giovanni Ridolfi <giovanni.ridolfi@yahoo.it> writes:

> --- Dom 8/11/09, Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> ha scritto:
> > How about this:
> > 
> >     <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m Tue>
>
> Does the "++1m" help? : 
>
> ** TODO LUG meeting
>    DEADLINE: <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 ++1m Tue>

No, it doesn't help. When I specify what you show here, I get the item
in my agenda on:

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00>
    <2009-11-13 Thu 14:00>
    <2009-12-13 Sun 14:00>
    <2010-01-13 Wed 14:00>

and so on.

>    Marking this DONE will shift the date by at least one month,
>    but also by as many months as it takes to get this date into
>    the future.  However, it stays on a Tuesday, even 
>    if you called and marked it done on Saturday.

This doesn't seem to affect when the future events appear in the agenda,
so doesn't meet what I'm describing.

-- 
 \        “I spent a lot of money on wine and women, and like a fool I |
  `\                                 squandered the rest.” —Benny Hill |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

Feature request: Periodic events based on count of specific weekdays (was: Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays)

[Ben Finney]

Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> writes:

> […] “second Tuesday of the month” isn't niche, it is pretty common, I
> would have thought.

[…]

> > You'd have to ask Carsten to implement a new timestamp syntax. What
> > would you propose as a more readable designation?

How about a keyword that specifies the type of repeat being requested:

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m dow>
    Repeat each month, on the second Tuesday of the month. Calculated
    because this date is the second Tuesday of the month, and “dow” is
    the specified repeat type.

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m dom>
    Repeat each month, on the 13th day of the month. Calculated because
    this date is the 13th of the month, and “dom” is the specified
    repeat type.

    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m>
    Repeat each month, on the 13th day of the month. Calculated because
    this date is the 13th of the month, and “dom” is the default repeat
    type.

This allows existing behaviour to be continued (“repeat on the same day
of the month”), preserves the default behaviour, and allows for other
repeat types to be added later without breaking existing timestamp data.

-- 
 \                    “He who laughs last, thinks slowest.” —anonymous |
  `\                                                                   |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

Re: Feature request: Periodic events based on count of specific weekdays (was: Monthly events based on count of specific weekdays)

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Ben,

extending the date format would be a significant amount of work.
The current time/date format is already complex to handle
internally, mainly because it was build not with a clean design
but step by step.  o I am hesitating to add something like
you propose.

My feeling is that date specifications like this are seldomly used,
and as far as readability is concerned, for these few events you
could just (as suggested by Matt) write a note explaining what
the entry does.

Sorry.

- Carsten

On Nov 19, 2009, at 11:43 PM, Ben Finney wrote:

> Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> writes:
>
>> […] “second Tuesday of the month” isn't niche, it is pretty common, I
>> would have thought.
>
> […]
>
>>> You'd have to ask Carsten to implement a new timestamp syntax. What
>>> would you propose as a more readable designation?
>
> How about a keyword that specifies the type of repeat being requested:
>
>    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m dow>
>    Repeat each month, on the second Tuesday of the month. Calculated
>    because this date is the second Tuesday of the month, and “dow” is
>    the specified repeat type.
>
>    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m dom>
>    Repeat each month, on the 13th day of the month. Calculated because
>    this date is the 13th of the month, and “dom” is the specified
>    repeat type.
>
>    <2009-10-13 Tue 14:00 +1m>
>    Repeat each month, on the 13th day of the month. Calculated because
>    this date is the 13th of the month, and “dom” is the default repeat
>    type.
>
> This allows existing behaviour to be continued (“repeat on the same  
> day
> of the month”), preserves the default behaviour, and allows for other
> repeat types to be added later without breaking existing timestamp  
> data.
>
> -- 
> \                    “He who laughs last, thinks slowest.” — 
> anonymous |
>  ` 
> \                                                                   |
> _o__ 
> )                                                                  |
> Ben Finney
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Feature request: Periodic events based on count of specific weekdays

[Ben Finney]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> extending the date format would be a significant amount of work. The
> current time/date format is already complex to handle internally,
> mainly because it was build not with a clean design but step by step.

I don't know anything about elisp. But isn't that an indication that it
might be time to re-work the design so it's easier to maintain?

> My feeling is that date specifications like this are seldomly used,

I'm surprised at this assertion. Just about every club or social
organisation, etc., that I've heard of that meets monthly, does so by
meeting “on the second Tuesday of the month” or equivalent monthly
specification. It's surely not seldom in my experience.

It may be the case that not many *programs* implement this; but has that
ever been a reason to avoid mapping a real-world need into Org mode
before? :-)

> and as far as readability is concerned, for these few events you could
> just (as suggested by Matt) write a note explaining what the entry
> does.

Unfortunately, I can't see how to do that *and* have the rest of the Org
mode timestamp specification; I'm wanting to have all the current
features of Org timestamp specification plus day-of-week-based periodic
events.

For example, I can't see how to get an sexp timestamp to simultaneously
have a “second Tuesday of the month” period and a time-of-day
specification. I also can't see how to get these specifications to
display like other Org timestamps in agenda and other generated views.

So, while I appreciate that the current timestamp parser design might
make implementation difficult, I don't think the current features of
either Org timestamp specification or sexp specification will meet this
goal. That's why I'm asking for this feature request.

I'm happy to discuss different specifications; the latest one I proposed
was for discussion, and I'm not wedded to it. Is there a different
syntax that would make parsing easier, while still adding the feature
I've described?

-- 
 \       “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them |
  `\    to do to their fellows, because it always coincides with their |
_o__)                      own desires.” —Susan Brownell Anthony, 1896 |
Ben Finney

Re: Re: Feature request: Periodic events based on count of specific weekdays

[Samuel Wales]

On 2009-11-20, Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> I'm happy to discuss different specifications; the latest one I proposed
> was for discussion, and I'm not wedded to it. Is there a different
> syntax that would make parsing easier, while still adding the feature
> I've described?

If this is done:

For a discussion of making syntax simple, extensible, robust,
quotable, nestable, pretty-printable, etc., see my posts on extensible
syntax.  Other keywords include "parsing risk" and "ID markers".  ID
markers use extensible syntax and thus provide examples.

IMO: I am not convinced that timestamps should be resyntaxed unless
other syntax problems can be solved at the same time.  I already have
to look up whether deadline warning goes before repeat or the other
way around, and what the meanings of the different repeat types are,
so, for me, timestamps are already pretty complicated.

-- 
Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: You only think it's dark. [CDC has denied ME/CFS for 25 years]
=================================================================
Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/xmrv_qa.html

Re: Re: Feature request: Periodic events based on count of specific weekdays

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Ben,

On Nov 20, 2009, at 11:56 PM, Ben Finney wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> extending the date format would be a significant amount of work. The
>> current time/date format is already complex to handle internally,
>> mainly because it was build not with a clean design but step by step.
>
> I don't know anything about elisp. But isn't that an indication that  
> it
> might be time to re-work the design so it's easier to maintain?

Oh yes!  If I were to start over, I would definitely implement
the date/tim syntax in a way that is more easily expandable, and
that is parsed by a single function so changes would only affect
a small part of the code.  This is very desirable.

In fact, *many* parts in Org-mode could/should be rewritten from
scratch, in a much cleaner way.

Unfortunately it does not mean that this will get done, by me,
any time soon.  I could delve into the technical difficulties this
change would have, but maybe this is not if interest here.

>
>> My feeling is that date specifications like this are seldomly used,
>
> I'm surprised at this assertion.

I have not formulated precisely enough here.  I believe that everyone  
has
one or a few of these types of appointments.  What I mean is that it is
not a frequent task to have to set up one of these, compared to how
often you write down an appointment or a deadline.  I, for example,
set up many appointments per day, but second-tuesday-of-the-month
type events only once every half year or so.

> Just about every club or social
> organisation, etc., that I've heard of that meets monthly, does so by
> meeting “on the second Tuesday of the month” or equivalent monthly
> specification. It's surely not seldom in my experience.
>
> It may be the case that not many *programs* implement this; but has  
> that
> ever been a reason to avoid mapping a real-world need into Org mode
> before? :-)

:-) definitely not.

>
>> and as far as readability is concerned, for these few events you  
>> could
>> just (as suggested by Matt) write a note explaining what the entry
>> does.
>
> Unfortunately, I can't see how to do that *and* have the rest of the  
> Org
> mode timestamp specification; I'm wanting to have all the current
> features of Org timestamp specification plus day-of-week-based  
> periodic
> events.

You are right that you cannot get the full functionality of Org-mode
time stamps with diary-like ones.  However, the main restriction I see
is the special behavior of TODO entries which go through a repeat.

On the other hand, diary-sexp entries allow you to make arbitrarily
complex time stamps - any specific syntax would always be more limited.

> For example, I can't see how to get an sexp timestamp to  
> simultaneously
> have a “second Tuesday of the month” period and a time-of-day
> specification. I also can't see how to get these specifications to
> display like other Org timestamps in agenda and other generated views.

* 13:00-15:00 Group meeting at the cafeteria
   First or third Wednesday of month from 1 to 3 in the afternoon
   <%%(or (diary-float t 3 1) (diary-float t 3 3))>

> So, while I appreciate that the current timestamp parser design might
> make implementation difficult, I don't think the current features of
> either Org timestamp specification or sexp specification will meet  
> this
> goal. That's why I'm asking for this feature request.

The request is duly noted and in my list of possible tasks to
pick up, but I fear that the chances to get to it soon are slim.

- Carsten

>
> I'm happy to discuss different specifications; the latest one I  
> proposed
> was for discussion, and I'm not wedded to it. Is there a different
> syntax that would make parsing easier, while still adding the feature
> I've described?

No, the syntax is easy to parse, but there are many different places
in Org which would have to learn to deal with these.

>
> -- 
> \       “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants  
> them |
>  `\    to do to their fellows, because it always coincides with  
> their |
> _o__)                      own desires.” —Susan Brownell Anthony,  
> 1896 |
> Ben Finney
>
>

Re: Re: Feature request: Periodic events based on count of specific weekdays

[David Bremner]

Ben Finney wrote:


>I'm surprised at this assertion. Just about every club or social
>organisation, etc., that I've heard of that meets monthly, does so by
>meeting “on the second Tuesday of the month” or equivalent monthly
>specification. It's surely not seldom in my experience.

I missed some context, so maybe this was already mentioned, but for
things like this it should be possible to use diary lisp style date
entries

%%(diary-float t 2 1) 19:00 Club meeting

seems to do the "First Tuesday of the month" for me. Notice that there
must be no space at the beginning of the line.

d