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[2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:ac6f:1ae2:dd26:d95d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g8-20020a056a00078800b0050e006279bfsm4663805pfu.137.2022.06.25.23.56.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 25 Jun 2022 23:56:43 -0700 (PDT) References: <87a6b8pbhg.fsf@posteo.net> <875ykwvmz7.fsf@posteo.net> <871qvioquw.fsf@gmail.com> <87czew3w5l.fsf@localhost> User-agent: mu4e 1.8.0; emacs 29.0.50 From: Tim Cross To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Org mode export accessibility (was: About 'inline special blocks') Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:29:11 +1000 In-reply-to: <87czew3w5l.fsf@localhost> Message-ID: <87v8sn3obd.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x42e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1656226660; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=etqeRGuDQxuwL44aRyPL7uRxXc6U26AIYK8FDrgEUxs=; b=Zg6YkKuYV3xXk5+lDCyCtE3rxV+3j1hXmMX4feus5LDBbPMW+83HCTv7nRMWNlgvTejnPN RRg7Ig30hbtQn61ESCAcy6S7a0p5g+N+/uFNHfU28vOrL8brdhNUuHZPXH7lZGIQUEIomg pHK2lS0gn/TxPRU3/1rJYkOFwJrSeE+7KRv/XdR7ykRoUPLk5Hndhz5WDCEuZhOo8U5SE7 Zob6coXGkfZI+bpcTOX2Rolrsj3EmOvzSVWiwGVZaojMSgMGTv4dB+PDciHzsleMNu7Zvz UxcrZ9Hes3/QtkZUOSwspyxeNTM2EyN5gflQmQvv7kjan70WQT1yXeEWzPdBiQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1656226660; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=FMF6lAKGN8xtFVv9eoZJxyMwEc+XWxzV415royKUXxWk+iVpln0yqLcLaSRuZKQg4qQi9F Bnd9ZkDq4+yDoAxWgEWjhJVmvLXSaNtirW/SJMSqbIpWhz1Xd7pl1jVE6OjBKW7jLe9Ahk +b+rle84NpSe/xyEPzdiqzYNGO1mKNUOiRjrLTsjewXzaw4LqvcqP9curuhTIqDeDzhOTb yeMjyi1QLdxGrT3IxVwy9d4eoIGv5TStrVWHorFc4LSFsuZf9DHaKaRyZZAsHx6oHUhcpv h12UY38/dCDNWXBOxBPOEKXJ0q/AUet5f7i6U4DYgB+PHCLHHLq9JPaZS4K5Zw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=ctx5ayBl; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.26 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=ctx5ayBl; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 610F1CCE0 X-Spam-Score: -4.26 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 8OodEBATMWOC Ihor Radchenko writes: > Tim Cross writes: > >> Sadly, org isn't great from an accessibility perspective. This is >> something I would like to see improved, but it is a huge and complex >> task. There are some 'easy' winds we could try. For example, org still >> defaults to using the and tags instead of >> and . Likewise, we should move to html5 as >> the default, not xhtml, but last time I raised that, there was >> considerable push back to stick with xhtml. We also need complete >> overhaul of the use of aria tags and numerous other areas. As I said, a >> very large job which is complex and extremely time consuming. > > I will not argue about html5 switch - I don't have enough knowledge to > weigh on this. > > However, can't we at least address accessibility issues with the > existing HTML export? A good starting point could be identifying what > can be improved in ox-html.el. > Yes, we can probably make some incremental improvements. However, it is a complex and difficult area and I suspect to really improve the situation, we likely need a major re-design. A big part of the challenge is how to enable authors to add the right level of accessibility 'tagging', but at the same time, not lose one of the main advantages of org mode i.e. simplicity and ease of syntax. >> Sadly, I'm not sure there is a lot we can do with accessibility and PDFs >> in org mode. This is the one area where TeX/LaTeX does a poor job. Last >> time I looked, there was considerable discussion about what to do from >> an accessibility standpoint in the TeX community, but seemed to be >> little or very slow progress (not a criticism of the efforts of members >> of that community, but rather a reflection of how complicated this stuff >> is). > > From Org perspective, we can do what is available in the exported > format. If LaTeX is not great from accessibility point of view, is there > a better format? Or are there things we can do to improve situation in > ox-latex.el? > As I understand it (which isn't brilliant), the core problem is more to do with how the LaTeX/TeX engine processes the input to generate the postscript and pdf output. Modern PDFs have a wealth of internal tagging which simply sin't supported via the tex -> pdf pathway. The matter is made slightly worse by a lack of built-in support within latex/tex for accessibility 'tags' (similar to the aria tags for web content). > What about other export backends? > To be honest, no idea. I'm certainly not an expert in these areas. While I am impacted more by lack of accessibility, unfortunately, that doesn't make you an expert. I do feel that in order to get reasonable accessibility levels, it is probably something which needs to be baked in as part of the overall design and not something which can be added later. This isn't really feasible. Things can probably be slightly improved, but I doubt org mode and the documents it produces will ever be particularly good from an accessibility perspective.