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Dye" To: Jean Louis Cc: "Thomas S. Dye" , Tim Cross , Ihor Radchenko , Daryl Manning , rjhorn@alum.mit.edu, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 06:55:13 -1000 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87v8kzizqq.fsf@tsdye.online> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box2035.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tsdye.online X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 50.113.33.148 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1pJHJw-002I98-1a X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: cpe-50-113-33-148.hawaii.res.rr.com (poto-foou.tsdye.online) [50.113.33.148]:46736 X-Source-Auth: tsd@tsdye.online X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: dHNkeWVvbmw7dHNkeWVvbmw7Ym94MjAzNS5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.220.216.123; envelope-from=tsd@tsdye.online; helo=alt-proxy28.mail.unifiedlayer.com X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674320847; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=7M6aDsR6ucFb6ZYhFeXa/7BWHdpo/xc5mNdYYPPXAZI=; b=Ur27QDxfPbG8OWX52/VsaXcghC5NMOefwRZTMdJKA7DYuUPQOMv+PHxL3F6FZb0UFZAFGe h+MyF8kjqFgXDqVzirBQ9WqhjRQ7zsQg4gfjPCuPiFom0Pn3A+rsaPTGWh79BVTMwGWhdn rw9mAboIks6heiA8c3oi+eOIa/Phw8m3Gns1bVnP3re1StZycmQfXrdsBtSEYxIk9OpFyX KWuEljsNOBglwQUwNDpbxZpyS3S9kTzM68DC8oT9rV7Z5hQRCRKYkYdn9IEQwMluiJxR/m gvo2Xl2Hv5Y1sH+E5DJKL2zUGDJXrd4RPtS5AdT1YBrhlO2m05wuBX1hTVjykA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=IkD9eWOr; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674320847; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=XdQotMpLzUdHp+m8kw+QrHsASgib1/rTcocX+hVK38TSyvIlzTUfragu0aON7kT+VKrh6Y bRwTwKL7TRe3EhizHwvrtPhsQEwGw8QC1FdfVnQboxJQnHj3t5NnujAl/MWelSl5Q1B1II gT8F+FojO8y2DNTzfd2pLjHI4LbaiiIFIfFq0bXPgPKDMs15AQZ2iygwkN4w08ViWW/uPZ pfpYBkNkxjWm0Etd+OiF2gj0WazqwosCGQBhfdAmnw9BPua6q9hVv5JqsoSl37fdmCaMOY 8Utd54HxiZS7ydnzf8w08A/Q6oWKdJNza7wnKo5awOXaaf25N9IgeN/K6i41Sw== X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 2.60 X-Spam-Score: 2.60 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B656A11332 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=IkD9eWOr; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-TUID: eOpfbyKkToxe Aloha Jean Louis, Jean Louis writes: > * Thomas S. Dye [2023-01-19 19:23]: >> Only occurrences require absolute time, UTC. Events do not. >> They follow >> the user's space/time. >> >> > > > Org in this state can't handle such things. >> > > >> > > Org can do the useful thing: translate the UTC timestamp >> > > into local >> > > time and >> > > report both UTC and local time. User will be able quickly >> > > to >> > > determine if >> > > local time is incorrect for some reason, such as DST or >> > > travel. >> > >> > Other way around, it has to translate time stamp into UTC >> > time in the >> > first place. >> >> Yes, to store the time stamp, Org must take it from the event >> time of the >> user and translate it to UTC. When reporting an occurrence to >> the user, >> then Org must translate from UTC to the user's space/time. >> User might have >> a toggle, like pretty entities, that either shows UTC or >> translation to >> user's space/time. > > That is right. I have stated same. > > How do you want Org to know that user's time is in X time zone? > > It means, that new settings, variables, functions, must be > introduced > to handle it properly. Timestamp like this one: <2023-01-21 Sat > 09:55> > at HTML export will be from 95% and upwards incorrect. To be > correct, > time zone designation shall be placed in HTML export. User could > be in > South America, not in London, that exports it. Time zone UTC > does not > apply for South America. Representation is wrong. > > When you say that Org must take it from the event time of the > user, > that means that Org must take some parameter to understand what > time > zone user was. > > That means involving functions for export, or sharing of Org > files. > > In general, we speak about representation. > > You may start making distinctions between "events" and > "occurences", > but technically we speak of time stamps which lack relation to > time > zone in Org. Whatever you "time stamp" without time zone, > representation of it in other time zone becomes difficult, as it > lacks > the fundamental designation of time zone where it was recorded. > > And it does not matter if user records time zones in UTC, or > other > time zones. > Here is a distinction that I think is important based on Ramsey's distinction between event and occurrence: UTC is absolute time and not a timezone. UTC doesn't occupy a region of space/time, as does a timezone. This is why UTC can be used to generate synchronous times for occurrences, but timezones are required to generate synchronous times for events. hth, Tom -- Thomas S. Dye https://tsdye.online/tsdye