From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id 0N9vJoA1sV+bAQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 14:04:48 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id aBkgIoA1sV9vJwAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 14:04:48 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38AF29402D6 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 14:04:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:56244 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keIe5-00078a-PZ for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 09:04:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49608) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keId9-00078M-U7 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 09:03:47 -0500 Received: from static.214.254.202.116.clients.your-server.de ([116.202.254.214]:45460 helo=ciao.gmane.io) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keId4-0006sh-Sv for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 09:03:44 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1keId0-0007nW-TK for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 15:03:38 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org From: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 15:03:33 +0100 Message-ID: <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:IygFtmrOYPQFjv+5hH1Vic2ywMU= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geo-emacs-orgmode@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/15 07:44:08 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.59 X-TUID: SO38CwzOj0Cj Detlef Steuer writes: > I'm constantly bitten by that change, but was too lazy to dig for the > cause. But now that I know, I want to add 2c. > > If one writes prose it looks much more natural to have > > * Healine > > start editing in column 1 of next row. > (Personally I would prefer to start at row 3, but independent > of the depth of the heading. Probably there is a setting already?) > > C-j is fine and nice, but I *feel* the default should be the other > way round. > > I'm in no way emotional about these changes, but as Arne demonstrates > in his example text, org files become less readable when using the new > default. Heavy indenting is not what we are used to see if we have > subheadings in prose. Readability of org on the screen should be very high > in list of usability target. (Most probably it indeed is for the developers! > I'm not assuming you would neglect it!) > Maybe all boils down to a matter of taste, but at least imho Arne's > example shows the problem quite clearly. > > For lists or sequences of mostly empty headings this does not matter > as much. > > Furthermore: If I understand correctly electric-ident mode is thought to > be a helper for programming major modes. In my opinion org is no (not > only, much more than a) programming mode, so maybe electric ident is not > the optimal default. Note that indenting section bodies by default predates Org 9.4: in Org 9.3, hitting TAB on the first line of text after a heading indents it to column LEVEL+1. IMHO, the default value of org-adapt-indentation might be the issue here (made more visible by the change in 9.4): I agree that hard-indenting prose should not be the default behaviour. FWIW the .dir-locals.el file at the root of Org's own repository sets this variable to nil; maybe that suggests that it would be a better default? (As I said in my reply to Jean Louis: I've only skimmed over this thread; apologies if I've missed anything.)