From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2GmRGNYbpWEpTAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:28:38 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id mM0rFNYbpWGfGAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 18:28:38 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C66C79221 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:28:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48424 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrlOG-0001FI-3x for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:28:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48228) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrlNT-0001C4-V4 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:27:47 -0500 Received: from mout-p-102.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.152]:42388) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrlNP-0003AP-Px for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:27:47 -0500 Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [80.241.60.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-102.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4J2v314tMMzQjf7 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:27:25 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=guelker.eu; s=MBO0001; t=1638210443; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=pYIFrDVxtgY2ozS3fcmPiKECe67WWc4dDvaeyhvH3Fs=; b=K5pHUkR4x4h5S/iPS1j3w7Y8K0pIOLAS6mpqwgiqQmYkm5Xu8TJEIxIgeatHaAbvnUoI/U sBV30teiKGWfqlaob/MC4Tr2oa0sOW53OQsNA4Jwj7+gBidK71uUFCR4qYi5Ax9H6ngFBt Fd/oiVA2n4YtJ+ah+FY0AmKkxduUm5fZRlQ3hsTn21JDWwPVw33k9T3zH+HH2k7YJE/1YA lI5wYObSI1Gj8pyED7uAE2dmoCt6V6i+uqSjb9IuFD0KS8l569y7++TJPtuAWxA6l+/q8+ RzSiWwQih0E6XEqP/9L0SjHdKhpKzWH4k/PgIaSOdVBefMORA18pRVtTcfnHmQ== References: <2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <875ysb7v1r.fsf@gmail.com> <2021-11-29T14-12-55@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> From: M. =?utf-8?B?4oCYcXVpbnR1c+KAmSBHw7xsa2Vy?= To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode In-reply-to: <2021-11-29T14-12-55@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:27:18 +0100 Message-ID: <87tufuu8ah.fsf@atlantis> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=80.241.56.152; envelope-from=mg@guelker.eu; helo=mout-p-102.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638210518; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=pYIFrDVxtgY2ozS3fcmPiKECe67WWc4dDvaeyhvH3Fs=; b=dgBvPV5nATUGC8HapgnMVBr+gkpFxfku2lfiXYMwWdxA4oSyPHQde4cQsUi/wSqIvuAWtF r2jAlQqX4T8+myvukWJGxlr/yKbDMJ+i19V39BvVbg6ifPYDEg7+QGWTwAyF7rryjW8KgM MOvvcqa5gxj/AKDSjF+aoCguJJbSFTBSAQX48we3lFpLODs4nuwyuHPYYYH/dVJnHUWlrk Q85c/YJrkpgbgT9JBsrcsvRQAuSIvzzgSi6udU0WlukE4UQGkSV4gn2US8EGwMZQ5n1XF4 Bn3b+p8Yd/o9ZIS4tOJ9YehTjj7er+44ZKlfgWJNEKC0tSy9LumScsdHqBXrzQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638210518; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ZrFqvZbjNrtW5ucaOU8zkNWpEfaJWaQzPQnHbe3L2Dcc2Jc+cC/RJlsAHHk0ibhw877U+k rsOO4MwvE+QmG4jDtgQAJNMTxThonB7yKnx6rz6b/GDm2VvsMdZXqyF44V9PvJ7OXnONDs g30x0D5Ocv7ytZ33zwpUNFcA473uUWCq+8vUBju4H5P/SJRJUuk1J2LqzXXSNPSXwD3fB2 99xpRK/eTVJHFCOlyostkfZpqflvz+eTpq5elcwcaiPamoRz0ZclZDTjY2Q9uNH7eEm1BO /QCu0/krxnCmjN2NLMS4I86vZWA+3X/AxI/Wh8AWNYYpEZxqueOhVwPmMbdQjg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=guelker.eu header.s=MBO0001 header.b=K5pHUkR4; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.31 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=guelker.eu header.s=MBO0001 header.b=K5pHUkR4; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: C66C79221 X-Spam-Score: -3.31 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 5Wvh69cvBVSt Am Montag, dem 29. November 2021 schrieb Karl Voit: > It seems to be the case that the name "Orgdown" is the reason why > the Org-mode community does not support the idea of an > implementation-agnostic definition of the syntax. Which is ... kinda > funny if you think about it. > > Well if the project is not working out, at least I made my point and > we continue to have all those misunderstandings and lack of Orgdown > support in 3rd party tools (because Org-mode is way too big). I think the project has value; better tooling outside of Emacs is something org can only profit from in my opinion. One point that has not been raised yet are scenarios of collaborative work; I would enjoy it quite a bit if I could work on documents together with people who do not like Emacs as an editor for whatever reason. Currently, org as a file format is pretty much excluded if collaboration is intended with someone who does not use Emacs. The natural choice in these cases is Markdown. I agree that the name is kind of odd as it seems as if it is necessary to invoke some association to Markdown. Other markup languages also do not need that -- Textile, Asciidoc, etc. Perhaps it is best to simply ignore the naming issue and focus on the actual work instead. It is far more important to get the compatibility levels defined. After that you can still reconsider the naming. > Oh, there is a very large danger here of getting something that is > not compatible with Org-mode any more. I don't think that this would > be a good thing. At least the different flavors killed the fun of > Markdown for me. The astonishing thing is that most people manage to get along despite of the incompatibilities of the different Markdown flavours. Otherwise Markdown would not be such a success. Why is this? What can be learned from this for creating org tools outside of Emacs? Actually surveying this might be of interest. Maybe most documents are very simple files. README files for FLOSS projects, forum posts, blog posts. For such content the features where the Markdown implementations differ are usually not required. It suffices to use unstyled text, headings, code blocks, quotes, emphasis. That is it basically. org shines on documents where more is required -- documentation, books, since recently scientific articles. Markdown=E2=80=99s common subset is not expressive enough for these documents, whereas for simple documents there is not much benefit in trading in Markdown for org. Thus, maybe it is more fruitful to try to market org(down) as a markup for complex documents, with the added benefit that it does incidentally also cover simple documents nicely on par with Markdown. -quintus --=20 Dipl.-Jur. M. G=C3=BClker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<