From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id aNmVHqzjyWL0bgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 09 Jul 2022 22:23:08 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id KBVyHqzjyWKhrQAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 09 Jul 2022 22:23:08 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECDE03E21B for ; Sat, 9 Jul 2022 22:23:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59514 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAGyp-0005mA-31 for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:23:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56676) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAGy0-0005m1-6n for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:22:16 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:38787) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAGxx-00055F-Vb for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:22:15 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80012240107 for ; Sat, 9 Jul 2022 22:22:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1657398131; bh=NX1pWW72AJfkfYNveBH7xVdr5DJZcPS/ReVSif6J+Ag=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=rkEFtdUo4ImHifgaQavODDJvFJu6z0FSbsSIHjkb63M2QGl0JERrQMcmQWPFyv2Ng EE6AS19/2uLm/kOmnk7Sz4Fc4vrKbYo+w9VYWhmspFWr3DI7ZVmRO4io8EojM8Xoxz z5p0q9Uj8r7plsLIrS4fWZ3e9qSz2lohklnsl67Nas3niY45boxXQi9J+9mOTtB/FI 4GPcpFCZcyR3TnreJ4LP1mzaGSBAjbI8yfMDMF5/fRS915fl+Gwbbo7a0xLxJJAKI7 hfHD9PLe51klGnOipkuO0Ax2X7RNjHLacI/f7ZVe/BjfkGWUB+gM9gSdwCxkzTnaJj nNpYTvzXBolEQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4LgM4y2PfCz9rxN; Sat, 9 Jul 2022 22:22:09 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Juan_Manuel_Mac=C3=ADas?= To: Max Nikulin Cc: orgmode Subject: Re: LaTeX export: when is it more useful to use LuaTeX instead of pdfTeX? References: <87ilo7ztm3.fsf@posteo.net> <87ilo7tp78.fsf@tsdye.online> <87o7xy8t4g.fsf@posteo.net> <87a69i8ha1.fsf@posteo.net> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2022 20:22:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Max Nikulin's message of "Sat, 9 Jul 2022 23:22:34 +0700") Message-ID: <87tu7qnij4.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=maciaschain@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1657398188; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=1oUK1YURFLlWKpbqUIVLxrrSS/mNrk4ouM+OLxEotJE=; b=BAYRLIC+v+IKnAGcHruAmS4iL/b81EUfH/pdUSynbs+LHMespXmFioDXXSso0+eLVTol+h gdNVMv25aKbyt5cFfPpPymf1W6ibSBPAXMPIVDHgbrJ3KRk4lfqB4wTOSIVyAGPrByK0Co DRdepV6t6UEZ6WlSIISDImxDQQrgv47w8+NKMf6wxtSfSca3ATa5WQMUM6Yl+4ov3Iac4F CZppL2x86l18TNRtlIm3VC9Kfa10LO8FvCN1fKjk9nehKtkQkvnN5GO5liw2q0CyHXOPR/ Kr3p8EyasS7xPYg7kE1lnKUBDdbJyfxcUQ6jzaR+PgWPgpQ2lqLVqTJh+NtEoQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1657398188; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=PQJN5euQ5w9A5RgZnifBbSK4bLh95GkaiCXpEBIVWfl9i9q5Tl8zCok+CLlgqYUHRI3etx IjVEG2mxbkxCh49R6DwUMey91fvtLUiklsEUjglPTHvfyQcsvMby2B/bAiolYFirv9DLa3 q0EeD80qllBS2hBYB821nQ3Q57Vy8a4Z5Vjw/If5AZmC/Ust0BNO4bJmYEdioJwuRKK9tz QZuNnra+OqNFKlR8AgFlf0yG0gYyC/4KB5w3aOMXdTrGqBXGyDGssdZDrGv4S9L6Uur1ES gWSD7agKXNFyx0AopMj/p2iOUYQOs17mszMu6CIYH1cuOLj6YX4kXzu5TSYPbg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=rkEFtdUo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.45 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=rkEFtdUo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: ECDE03E21B X-Spam-Score: -4.45 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: c8d7w4uRVPPj Max Nikulin writes: > Characters from Latin scripts, the set is wider than latin-1 but does > not cover other languages. I do not dispute that font encoding is > Unicode (if it can be stated so), usually support of Unicode is > associated with smooth experience with wide range of languages. A Unicode font is a Unicode-encoded font. It can have 2 glyphs or 2000. But it's still a Unicode font. > But for default settings getting blank instead of text in some routine > notes is hardly acceptable. Unfortunately \setmainfont is not enough. > Starting for "the simplest of basic" on the next step a user may > notice that bold... Please, compile this: \documentclass{article} \usepackage{fontspec} \setmainfont{FreeSerif} \begin{document} Abc =E2=80=94 =CE=91=CE=BB=CF=86=CE=AC=CE=B2=CE=B7=CF=84=CE=BF =E2=80=94 = =D0=90=D0=B7=D0=B1=D1=83=D0=BA=D0=B0=E2=80=A6 \emph{Abc =E2=80=94 =CE=91=CE=BB=CF=86=CE=AC=CE=B2=CE=B7=CF=84=CE=BF =E2=80= =94 =D0=90=D0=B7=D0=B1=D1=83=D0=BA=D0=B0=E2=80=A6} \textbf{Abc =E2=80=94 =CE=91=CE=BB=CF=86=CE=AC=CE=B2=CE=B7=CF=84=CE=BF =E2= =80=94 =D0=90=D0=B7=D0=B1=D1=83=D0=BA=D0=B0=E2=80=A6} \textbf{\emph{Abc =E2=80=94 =CE=91=CE=BB=CF=86=CE=AC=CE=B2=CE=B7=CF=84=CE= =BF =E2=80=94 =D0=90=D0=B7=D0=B1=D1=83=D0=BA=D0=B0=E2=80=A6}} With \setmainfont{FreeSerif} I'm telling LuaTeX to use the full FreeSerif family as the main roman font, which includes bold, italic, and bold italic. It is the duty of the user (at least the LuaTeX user) to know that this family is present in his/her system and includes those styles. > or typewriter text is missing. \setmainfont{FreeSerif} \setsansfont{FreeSans} \setmonofont{FreeMono} I honestly don't understand why you find it unacceptable that the responsibility for managing fonts and the languages associated with those fonts falls on the user. It is to be expected. And it is something that has finally corrected a great anomaly that TeX and LaTeX has always been dragging along for almost its entire history, and that put it (being more powerful and sophisticated) behind other types of typesetting software like Indesign or quark. LuaTeX and XeTeX are digital typesetting systems. They are not word processors. The user who wants fine tuning in this regard will have to read the fontspec manual and the babel or polyglossia manual thoroughly. I can agree with you that the choice of the "default" font (Latin Modern) is not exactly happy, due to the little coverage that this font has for non-Latin scripts. But the demanding LuaTeX user is rarely going to use latin modern (I've never used it in my life for real production). I think I made it clear in the first post of this thread what kind of use cases LuaTeX is suitable for. If someone finds that unacceptable, of course you'd better use pdfLaTeX. By the way, in pdfLaTeX you can't write Greek out of the box, nor Arabic, nor Japanese, etc., etc. So I don't see where the difference is. And even so, I insist, it is not necessary to go into typographical depths. A configuration like the one I put before (FreeSerif/FreeSans/FreeMono) will satisfy 90% of lazy users or those who want to use LaTeX in autopilot mode. Is it possible to implement all that in Org in such a way that a minimum preamble is generated with what is necessary? How to define "what is necessary", when there are thousands of options in fontspec and many ways to declare and define font families and font features with fontspec, with babel and with polyglossia? That's not counting specialized packages for Arabic, Japanese, etc. (and I am writing a package for greek). I think doing something like that in Org would be highly intrusive on Org's part. Maybe something very, very, very basic and minimal would work in order to avoid those empty spaces that seem unacceptable to you, maybe three variables for setmainfont/-sansfont/-monofont[1]. Going further, in my opinion, makes no sense. I think it is much more important to unify in org the issue of languages, polyglossia and babel, because as it is now it collects an obsolete scenario. [1] In my opinion, something similar to what pandoc does by default, using the iftex package, would suffice: \usepackage{iftex} \ifPDFTeX \usepackage[T1]{fontenc} \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc} \usepackage{textcomp}=20 \else \usepackage{fontspec} \usepackage{unicode-math} \defaultfontfeatures{Scale=3DMatchLowercase} \defaultfontfeatures[\rmfamily]{Ligatures=3DTeX} \setmainfont{FreeSerif} \setsansfont{FreeSans} \setmonofont{FreeMono} \fi