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Dye" To: Tim Cross Cc: "Thomas S. Dye" , Jean Louis , Ihor Radchenko , Daryl Manning , rjhorn@alum.mit.edu, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:24:45 -1000 In-reply-to: <63c9d976.620a0220.a7d40.113b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box2035.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tsdye.online X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 50.113.33.148 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1pIfPJ-003WYP-Ff X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: cpe-50-113-33-148.hawaii.res.rr.com (poto-foou.tsdye.online) [50.113.33.148]:41502 X-Source-Auth: tsd@tsdye.online X-Email-Count: 6 X-Source-Cap: dHNkeWVvbmw7dHNkeWVvbmw7Ym94MjAzNS5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.220.216.123; envelope-from=tsd@tsdye.online; helo=alt-proxy28.mail.unifiedlayer.com X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.499, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674175120; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=iGaBy4XzYM0nvtDpIR/sNHzmcrFLrdhM7rin1cDlVQ2PBZGhPS219FrEI1tdypeDGMd45i D7wCmrZsJaXjXlwrvJ2d7stYysjUJKhWwqBzp931FkbIabTspYZsMQoEUTyfYGNUyHoEZh NvoTfMToE73m6OYrtZEJgHMy4FXizsC9POsmfWrBpTrb39g6FzMwCwcA3gOx89xyROfETF yxm9+5l10ghEQLof10jEBTdzb8fFqVstEnWfW7JDZbKrkTag/ArCXC0mmEV1pe3KzLjJ79 PeX6jycQaQSIw38U06zwGYZCycIa8+wCqsT89bsfmxRv1zcgzPN46Jq5JU12yg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=JQCM9a3h; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674175120; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=lRnXC94V6poZBff1l9ZX8oy1m63AxQSklhsMl/UPblk=; b=X2gH2YFiABoZp8bd/8Q2aoc6w6OVaO5MsVCEILxH8xlO2Ix7Tzz7Sgk2LE1CaAiowkGW1h ERJJ3sICl4/hQH9RFnRLWeiuA2FvX4rpWF2jwAGrCuZnSKe3W8owtwVbq+pBHZuetOiyFb z3pj8XyCKYpvu9zoXPeKKFH4YoAvFnSkZoMRPlTx3AuK/dVOHh1+U0QWN0KKyHAe4jSBmW l9LdJq7/9e/8x5pOVsT/F7fcSMzHOpgf/2vYsF+z96h8dPOH8UeEuK07TIQ16E/SRcKmvp dIHGGcIqzkZL4BZqaAebcdNYUlzsDw3EkdBOp0V//55TkM5rmURvKPn5Ue8Gww== X-Spam-Score: 1.58 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A5D07EF81 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=JQCM9a3h; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 1.58 X-TUID: Lsg4TEdkfEZm Aloha Tim, Tim Cross writes: > "Thomas S. Dye" writes: > >> Aloha Tim, >> >>> UTC is a time zone - just one where offset is +0000 >> >> UTC is absolute time. It lacks the spatial component that >> defines a time zone. >> > > Really? I would have thought the prime meridian was the spacial > component for UTC? I thought the full long time zone name was > Etc/UTC > and UTC as the abbreviation. > > Regardless, in all the libraries I've used, you can use Etc/UTC > or UTC > in exactly the same way you would use something like > Australia/Sydney or > AEST. So perhaps, from a pedantic standpoint, it is not a time > zone, but > for all intent and purpose in this discussion, I feel that point > is > irrelevant. Agreed. It does seem irrelevant for time zone libraries. Nevertheless, from the Org perspective it might not be. An occurrence, which marks changes in the nature or relations of things at a time, requires absolute time. Meetings, which involve a change in relation among participants, are occurrences. IMO, this indicates Org should give occurrences a UTC timestamp, then translate that for each of the participants using their local time zone. The insane interval problems that Ihor brought up are moot in absolute time. A single timestamp serves a meeting regardless of whether the participants are all in one time zone or spread around the globe. An occurrence contrasts with an event, which is tied to the user's space/time. Time here is relative to the user. IMO, this means that Org should give events a timestamp without reference to either absolute time or a particular time zone, like the one it uses now. hth, Tom -- Thomas S. Dye https://tsdye.online/tsdye