From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id aO9cGWctNWMlbwEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:30:15 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id aOGIGWctNWOhNgEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:30:15 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF0BB8641 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:30:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59796 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1odm7h-0006Nd-IV for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 01:30:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39424) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1odm78-0006NU-N3 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 01:29:39 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:42513) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1odm76-0004rq-Cq for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 01:29:38 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9FF8240101 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:29:33 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1664429373; bh=gIi6uJmvGr84kxqUFVfih08WBO/UR0a3CJQGCbK9w4Y=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=HwmSk1exiGjm6pGUnErzLVI8M32h08bStSFrq5yzMOUcdvATg1mbEUuMTVx2Z6X53 Dkr2PfoRw+Qe3OgarK4TORRSvdJie5+hf89iFLjBUIuYjEWJILQUXIB7YEE038HjAz eH8vOzQjxIQzGs0GXc+K7Q09Y2zgopDT0YcEPTZX2tGz5vifXttbkImWuqrdSW2cEX 6dl2UWwTdndsu43B1OuItRqo9osVLaVk4vdCmU54OIKtQsNxHXDCXotkQ9xrWe5lZj k/Dpv42Gj8ngKG4NaM4lmo/qS0L+Th55i9BMvfsefzgOpQhpd3GI4pvUwKz3Q4Li9C IIN16tm3cVSWA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4MdMP86D9Jz6tmJ; Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:29:32 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Juan_Manuel_Mac=C3=ADas?= To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: orgmode Subject: Re: Explicit page breaks References: <87h70tyyiz.fsf@posteo.net> <87bkr1ngpm.fsf@localhost> <87pmfg3gp2.fsf@posteo.net> <87v8p8fatt.fsf@localhost> <87leq49bu0.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <87v8p698ki.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 05:29:29 +0000 In-Reply-To: <87v8p698ki.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Thu, 29 Sep 2022 11:13:33 +0800") Message-ID: <87sfkaague.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=maciaschain@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1664429415; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=WnlXChtvHSHwfP4X9uBX9fwrDi1FqUGwmOTmBrUOVNk=; b=PHvHrJnLsJEbDVMI1Ip7aCqeGpXU/jNzDCiImnk7dk32esNCPxXbL/nnD7wcGk+PuQsyFt /lZajVhEiCIJr1WBHQKlm3qtpC1GRLNloZJMjreJvDgu18ZDMTtTNeqjQEMCjaZMdTCriD QHzl6qwTEenXHR9Wpr0ylmBHD3p70yjRpsqcaUrwT/BV39qUEZdL7GoR6f05PsPb7gKRlb HEJfe9bInMlGQ6lSiNytFWawJT1o0EeTwM+LxjTN7W8uIq3LLlCBbUOegikSVnFch5zL1a x+yBiA8t/m7QMFoiHcu5+bzos3do7VyNUovj97luC5zS865I5fVER5J0IhMubA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1664429415; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=U1//4y3rerHWTh5bREys9R1mwpUibADewkUK5I3K2i3decboVnslIw1uE0HxOWz+SD5agl d2aSEX5kCQqfKXOLUCZqlIgFcN5vUy9uGn/gLyT7eC/zqc3Nl5+2Yke5ht6oUjLXxfA9tR lLKs1YmE35BUsSmK65BFl6yvbdWLjpZRLhEkDcML/VfojneAEq8ClYNhwuDHk4iKDaPYDs FWHUMQPqUVuPX0F7BLO4s2XAuipwJd04J2yDixUH3zkX21lKA2tSe17oCIgGKpVahhMq2u KN4UWRbx4u0nDGgTHfkFEI2F2nx+b2JaAlqsChCkyJIYgTHVL2rMZwGCu1Ih/Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=HwmSk1ex; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.54 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=HwmSk1ex; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EF0BB8641 X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: AMap5ONVuCNQ Ihor Radchenko writes: > Do note that page breaks may or may not lay between paragraphs or Org > elements. By its nature, page break is an object (in Org terminology). Indeed, page break can be placed anywhere. But inserting it before paragraphs, at least in Org, is the least compromised by the idiosyncrasies of each format: odt or LaTeX. And the most format-agnostic. And on the other hand, in LaTeX and odt it's also the safest place to put them, unless you want to add some fine-tuning in either case. Why would anyone want to add an explicit page break and interrupt the natural flow of text on the page? It occurs to me that for two possible reasons: a) for (let's say) "expressive" reasons, that is, because you want certain content to start on a new page. And b) out of simple necessity, to fix something you don't like: carry a line to the next page, fix an overfull vbox in LaTeX, or a thousand other things. Cuts by necessity can occur within the paragraph. But cutting a page within a paragraph is a tricky thing. In libreoffice (and I think in any word processor) you can place the cursor where you want to cut and press control + enter. This creates a new page but also creates two paragraphs, and we only want one paragraph, but with a page break in the middle. I suppose that a forced line break should be added at the end of the previous paragraph (and probably produce a very ugly result with very wide spaces between words). But the section on the next page would still be a new paragraph for libreoffice. LaTeX is more refined, but the process and the caveats are the same. \clearpage adds a new page (and a new paragraph) and terminates the old one. And \pagebreak simply adds a page break (and the best place to add it is between two paragraphs, I insist). If you have \flushbottom active (by default in the book class), with \pagebreak LaTeX will do its best to match the page height after \pagebreak, inserting the necessary vertical space before the break. If you want to insert a page break (\pagebreak) within a paragraph, LaTeX will choose the end of the line to break. If you want to force the break exactly there, you'll probably want to put something like \linebreak\par\pagebreak; again, you will now find yourself with two paragraphs, and you will need to add at least one \noindent before the second paragraph. With all this, I mean: to what extent should Org care about all these details, more related to fine-tuning the output format? Best regards, Juan Manuel